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Thread: Foreign Govt,s decide who is arrested on suspicion for crimes in Ireland

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    Default Foreign Govt,s decide who is arrested on suspicion for crimes in Ireland

    [I know there is an allied thread re the Bailey case but I feel the issues raised are wider and would ask the mods not to merge the threads.]


    The recent High court endorsement of a European Arrest Warrant [EAW] sets a legal precedent for the arrest of any Irish citizen suspected of involvement in a crime in Ireland that a foreign government deems to be a crime in their country.

    Any Irish citizen suspected of robbing a Frenchman in Dublin can now theoretically be arrested should the French government decree that robbing French citizens anywhere in the world is a crime.

    This incorrect and highly undesireable legal precedent has been established.

    It is a great pity that the parties involved in this frightening new legal development did not appeal the lawfulness of the suspects arrest to the Supreme Court.

    Should Turkey become EU members and should Sharia Law become enshrined in that Islamic state nobody anywhere in Ireland will be safe
    from the depradations of extremism now bolstered up by this incredibly
    careless legal decision.


    ......


    <Mod> This thread has been merged with "European Arrest Warrant undermine jurisdiction over domestic crime and the cr". </Mod>
    Last edited by stringjack; 28th June 2010 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Merged thread.

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    As long as the Bailey issues are kept on that thread, I do agree that this is worthy of it's own thread.

    Can I ask, if a Garda investigation has thus deemed no arrest is necessary, do they then have to follow a European Arrest Warrant if they've already investigated yet reached a seperate conclusion?

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    If the age of consent is 17 in country A and 16 in country B and an individual from country A sleeps with a 16 year old person in country B, could country A request the arrest of that individual?
    If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cochrane View Post
    As long as the Bailey issues are kept on that thread, I do agree that this is worthy of it's own thread.

    Can I ask, if a Garda investigation has thus deemed no arrest is necessary, do they then have to follow a European Arrest Warrant if they've already investigated yet reached a seperate conclusion?
    Thank you Dave.

    The Gardai must follow all valid court arrest warrants be they national or EAW. They have no choice in the matter.

    The courts do have a choice.
    The courts issue bench warrants for arrest frequently for persons suspected of crime in Ireland.

    The European Arrest Warrant [EAW] is new and its use to arrest persons suspected of crimes in Ireland is unique and frightening.

    IMO the high court should have declined to endorse and sent this EAW for testing wrt to the lawfullness of the proposed arrest.

    In not so doing a new and ugly legal precedent has now been established in Irish law.

    There are many common offences shared between EU states.

    Now any EU state that passes any extraterritorial law, can have Irish citizens ARRESTED on suspicion of breaching such a law in Ireland.

    This has to be a gross violation of Irish civil liberties.

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    They wouldn't have to request the arrest as the minimum age of consent is always the minimum. ie. If an Irish person sleeps with anyone of any age under the Irish age of consent in ANY country they are breaking the law. Besides the fact that Turkey is a secular state, The Field Marshall is right it is clearly a supersession of European law over Irish law as due process has already taken place in Ireland and this is frightening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seenitallb4 View Post
    If the age of consent is 17 in country A and 16 in country B and an individual from country A sleeps with a 16 year old person in country B, could country A request the arrest of that individual?
    Probably.
    You are talking about extradition here I think.

    Prior to any extradition there must be an arrest.

    It is the lawfulness of being ARRESTED, at the behest of a foreign government, on suspicion of committing a crime in your own country that is under discussion.

    Legal precedent has been established recently under an Irish high court for this to happen.

    Should a foreign EU government decide that it is a crime to insult their citizens anywhere in the world now theoritically if an Irishman is even suspected of contravening such a law he can be arrested and threatened with extradition.
    Last edited by The Field Marshal; 26th April 2010 at 09:09 PM.

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    We voted for this in a referendum.

    Now we see what we voted for and will have to get used to it.
    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair.

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    Politics.ie Member Grumpy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cochrane View Post
    As long as the Bailey issues are kept on that thread, I do agree that this is worthy of it's own thread.

    Can I ask, if a Garda investigation has thus deemed no arrest is necessary, do they then have to follow a European Arrest Warrant if they've already investigated yet reached a seperate conclusion?
    Because the High Court endorsed the EAW issued by France as it complied with the relevant legislation, the European Arrest Warrant Act of 2003.

    Now that Bailey has been brought before the High Court, he can challenge whether that EAW is lawful and also challenge the French extradition bid.

    David, this has been explained ad nausem to FM but he either cannot or will not accept it.

    In this case, the investigating gardai believe there is enough evidence to prosecute Bailey in Ireland for the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier in December 1996 and on at least two occasions have sent files to the DPP recommending a murder charge against Bailey.

    On both occasions, the DPP has decided there is not enough evidence to prosecute.

    Under French law, a person can be investigated and prosecuted for the murder of a French citizen anywhere in the world. Sophie's family have succeeded in having a French judge open an investigation into the case in France. The Irish authorities agreed to cooperate with that investigation and passed on the Garda files to French judge, Patrick Gachon.

    Gachon wants to investigate further whether Bailey has a case to answer under French law and sought his extradition from Ireland under an EAW.

    Now that he has been brought before the High Court, Bailey can challenge whether he can be extradited to France to face investigation (not a charge) for the murder of a French citizen in Ireland and for which the Irish DPP has ruled there is not enough evidence to prosecute in an Irish court. The High Court will make a ruling on the matter. Either way, an appeal to the Supreme Court is guaranteed.

    Again, this has been repeatedly explained to FM who refuses to accept the legal position as it stands.

    FM believes Mr Justice Peart should simply have thrown out the warrant when the EAW Act does not give the HC any such discretion if the warrant complies with the act - which in this case it does.

    Another point FM simply refuses to accept.

    There really is no second thread needed on this matter. FM is just attention-seeking.

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    Politics.ie Member Grumpy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He3 View Post
    We voted for this in a referendum.

    Now we see what we voted for and will have to get used to it.
    The European Arrest Warrant predates Lisbon Treaty by six years. It was agreed upon after 9/11. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Lisbon.

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    I didn't mention Lisbon.
    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair.

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