Follow @PoliticsIE
 
 
 
Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 102

Thread: Irish Libertarianism

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Baile Átha Cliath
    Posts
    36
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default Irish Libertarianism

    Libertarianism as a philosophy has experienced rapid growth in recent years and has certainly swept across Ireland and notably this site politics.ie. It has been said that Austro-libertarianism is the only truly international economic-political movement outside of Marxism. Many people question what libertarianism stands for. Prof Gerard Casey from UCD has written an article briefly introducing its core principle:

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Gerard Casey
    Libertarianism is a philosophical and political position that takes as its first priority the freedom of every human individual. Individual freedom is and should be the basis of all social relations. The core of Libertarianism is what is called the non-aggression axiom (NAA):

    NAA: no one may initiate or threaten to initiate the use of coercive physical violence against the person or property of another.

    Libertarianism rests on the initially startling claim that we own ourselves and, as the rightful owners of ourselves, only we can decide what is to be done by and to our bodies and our minds. We don’t perhaps normally think of ourselves as something that can be owned but the self-ownership claim is, at the very least, a rejection of the idea that anyone else owns us. The corollary of owning yourself is that as a free adult person you are also responsible for yourself. No one else is, or can be, obliged to protect, defend, pay for, support, feed, clothe, or care for you. In addition to yourself, you can own and use anything that you rightfully appropriate that belongs to no one else or anything that you can persuade someone else to give you, whether by sale or gift. You can do what you want with yourself and your property provided that in so doing you do not infringe on the equal rights of others to do what they like with themselves and their properties. This reciprocity is the basis of the only kind of equality that Libertarianism supports: the equality of all individuals before the law. Libertarianism can be justified either by appeal to consequences—namely, that the expansion of the sphere of human liberty will lead to greater prosperity and efficiency, or by appeal to rights, namely, that the expansion of the sphere of human liberty is justified by the nature of man and the nature of the world in which he lives.
    Read more here if interested:
    Libertarianism: An Introduction
    Tu Ne Cede Malis Sed Contra Audentior Ito
    Irish Liberty Forum
    Ludwig Von Mises Institute

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wherever I can see
    Posts
    16,728
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    to yourself, you can own and use anything that you rightfully appropriate that belongs to no one else or anything that you can persuade someone else to give you, whether by sale or gift. You can do what you want with yourself and your property provided that in so doing you do not infringe on the equal rights of others to do what they like with themselves and their properties
    How far back does that go ? Say if your grandfather was a "landgrabber" ... are you entitled to the land ?

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrolives View Post
    Libertarianism as a philosophy has experienced rapid growth in recent years and has certainly swept across Ireland and notably this site politics.ie. It has been said that Austro-libertarianism is the only truly international economic-political movement outside of Marxism. Many people question what libertarianism stands for. Prof Gerard Casey from UCD has written an article briefly introducing its core principle:


    Read more here if interested:
    Libertarianism: An Introduction
    Its growing rapidly as the Austrian School folk predicted that the economy would collapse in the manner it has.

    A lot of people confuse Austrian School and libertarianism with Neo Liberalism, which are in reality very polarised.
    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” - Friedrich A. Hayek

  4. #4
    Politics.ie Member readytogo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    cyberianpan, I've often wondered about that myself. For example, where would libertarians have stood on the 19th century Land War? Surely on the side on the landlords? Property rights and all that.

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ulster -- in NY state, what comes between Orange and Greene
    Posts
    260
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post
    How far back does that go ? Say if your grandfather was a "landgrabber" ... are you entitled to the land ?

    cYp
    Those types of questions can become interesting, and debate can be fruitful, after the merits of the basic premise have been agreed upon.

    I will venture what I will acknowledge is not an entirely satisfying answer, but is, I think, at least a good starting point:

    First, we must obviously be able to know with reasonable certainty that the person claiming to own the property in question does, in fact, claim it by inheritance from someone who was a "landgrabber" -- as opposed to a reputed "landgrabber" or a savvy trader, or simply someone who was disliked in the community for whatever reason. At some point, the mists of history must obviously frustrate inquiry along those lines.

    Second, if by "landgrabbger" (and I do know the Irish context, but I am addressing a more general question), you mean someone who stole the property -- i.e., did not acquire it through trade or gift -- from someone who had previously acquired it through his or her own efforts, then ceetainly the grandchild of such a "landgrabber" would, if "inheritance" was the *sole* basis for his/her claim, have no better right to it than the landgrabbing grandfather, himself.

    What, then, to do about it? Well, please note that there are a lot of qualifying words that I have used in setting up the hypothetical.

    Noi doubt, some sort of "rough justice" may be needed -- but note that the libertarian premise still provides at least a measurring stick for what is or is not "just" and what, among competing alternatives, is or is not *too* "rough" in approximating or achieving a just result.

    It is at this point that I think libertarian philosophy has done the bulk of its job already -- which is to set forth a rule for *measuring* the extent to which a property claim is justified or not, and for measuring what considerations ought to inform any proposal about what to do about propeertty claims that are not.

    As I have posted elsewhere on this site, young enthusiastic libertarians sometimes get carried away to the point of confusing a political philosophy (in their case, an excellent political philosophy) with an actual programme for government, or the like, that can be particualrised down to the finest detail. Not in a democracy. But we can try to get as close as possible.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrolives View Post
    Read more here if interested:
    Libertarianism: An Introduction
    Also: G. A. Cohen. 1995. Self-ownership, Freedom, and Equality. Chapters 3 and 4.

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ulster -- in NY state, what comes between Orange and Greene
    Posts
    260
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by readytogo View Post
    cyberianpan, I've often wondered about that myself. For example, where would libertarians have stood on the 19th century Land War? Surely on the side on the landlords? Property rights and all that.
    Absolutely not!

    The so-called "landlords" got "their" land as a result of it being stolen (through the power of the British government) from those who had been working it and claiming the right to it, as their ancestors had for generations.

    The so-called "rent" that was extracted was no different than a form of "property tax" levied by an agent of the government.

  8. #8
    Politics.ie Member Panopticon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    5,575
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Well, the "Irish context" is that the land was gradually seized over time by English and Scottish planters. So in a sense it is all unjustly allocated; or, more accurately nowadays, there is a class with an unjust amount of wealth because of the depredations of their ancestors. However, most of them now live in the UK, not Ireland.

    One interesting debate at present among American libertarians is whether women were more free in the late 1800s than they are now. Most believe that they were indeed more free back then, because they paid less tax, in theory. It would be interesting to see what our libertarians have to say about that.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopticon View Post
    Well, the "Irish context" is that the land was gradually seized over time by English and Scottish planters. So in a sense it is all unjustly allocated; or, more accurately nowadays, there is a class with an unjust amount of wealth because of the depredations of their ancestors. However, most of them now live in the UK, not Ireland.

    One interesting debate at present among American libertarians is whether women were more free in the late 1800s than they are now. Most believe that they were indeed more free back then, because they paid less tax, in theory. It would be interesting to see what our libertarians have to say about that.
    Women broadly used to have the freedom of choosing between raising her kids at home or chasing a career. Many women today have to chase careers to pay for owning the household. Debt is slavery.
    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” - Friedrich A. Hayek

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra Syndrome View Post
    Women broadly used to have the freedom of choosing between raising her kids at home or chasing a career. Many women today have to chase careers to pay for owning the household. Debt is slavery.
    Not according to libertarians.

Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •