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Thread: We need an immediate inquiry into the bank guarantee

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    Default We need an immediate inquiry into the bank guarantee

    The late night talks with bankers followed by the offer of a guarantee they say they didn't ask for. 2 cabinet ministers making the decision while the rest phoned in their agreement -including all of those in Dublin e.g., Gormley. He could have cycled there in 25 minutes.
    Who now believes Lenihan and Cowen's incredible version of events on the blanket bank guarantee?

    From Willem Buiter’s Maverecon:
    "When Ireland was about to be swept away by a wave of global financial mistrust triggered by the Irish government’s decision to guarantee effectively all liabilities of its banks, the then German Finance Minister Steinbruck made the amazing statement (which he obviously had not checked with his coalition partners, his Chancellor or his voters) that the Eurozone countries would not let one of their own go into default".
    FT.com | Willem Buiter's Maverecon

    (William Buiter: Professor of European Political Economy, London School of Economics and Political Science; former chief economist of the EBRD, former external member of the MPC; adviser to international organisations, governments, central banks and private financial institutions).

    "...Ireland was about to be swept away by a wave of global financial mistrust triggered by the Irish government’s decision to guarantee effectively all liabilities of its banks."

    Lenihan says the blanket guarantee was a masterstroke! Another confirmation of how shockingly irresponsible it was. Guaranteeing the existing bondholders of the banks, rather than future bondholders, was totally unnecessary and indeed inexplicable. I believe it was the single most irresponsible financial decision of any democratic west European government since World War 2. This is further confirmation of the urgent and immediate need for an independent, fearless, mainly non-Irish & non-Irish led expert team to swiftly investigate the extraordinary events surrounding it.

    It is also confirmation of the even more urgent need to stop the loss of €40Bn through NAMA.

    What do you think?

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    Does it matter what we think now?

    NAMA was proposed, left to lie there while FF and the Greens ignored ALL independent concerns and the main opposition parties acted aghast and made tutting noises. Then FF, the Greens and the media assumed the unchallenged mantle that NAMA is the only show in town while all but Burton continued to tut.

    A further case of Ireland being sold out to the expedience of parochial politics.

    The only real opponents to this sell-out were/are Vincent Browne and Shane Ross who legitimately questioned why the banks shouldn't be allowed pay for their mistakes and if necessary, collapse. I would add others like Mick Wallace to the enlightened on reflection.

    The government, NAMA and the banks should be gotten rid of and if necessary, the IMF invited in right now.

    By the way, where is all the fiscal and employment support we were promised for our 'Yes' vote to Lisbon?

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    NAMA and the Banks Guarantee are still there and have plenty of damage to do.

    The government of Dubai have said they will not give any Guarantees - and its is a State owned company that's bust.

  4. #4

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    The Irish Banks are rife with dodgy loans. They are terrified of it being exposed by Market forces and are doing anything to avoid any of the banks go bankrupt. Its a bit like King Canute and the tide.
    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” - Friedrich A. Hayek

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    Quote Originally Posted by consultant View Post
    Does it matter what we think now?

    NAMA was proposed, left to lie there while FF and the Greens ignored ALL independent concerns and the main opposition parties acted aghast and made tutting noises. Then FF, the Greens and the media assumed the unchallenged mantle that NAMA is the only show in town while all but Burton continued to tut.

    A further case of Ireland being sold out to the expedience of parochial politics.

    The only real opponents to this sell-out were/are Vincent Browne and Shane Ross who legitimately questioned why the banks shouldn't be allowed pay for their mistakes and if necessary, collapse. I would add others like Mick Wallace to the enlightened on reflection.

    The government, NAMA and the banks should be gotten rid of and if necessary, the IMF invited in right now.

    By the way, where is all the fiscal and employment support we were promised for our 'Yes' vote to Lisbon?
    If we don't make our government hierarchy face responsibility they will keep offending and keep allowing the banks to offend. This was a terrible €400 Bn decision. We need to know the truth ASAP.

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    FF have been shown to be completely corrupt, any new government should simply refuse to honour any deals that ff did that are clearly not in the taxpayers interest and i would go right back to ray burke and the flogging off of national assets.The new government should simply state all government deals in future will be done with complete transparency with the taxpayers interest put first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonpartyboy View Post
    FF have been shown to be completely corrupt, any new government should simply refuse to honour any deals that ff did that are clearly not in the taxpayers interest and i would go right back to ray burke and the flogging off of national assets.The new government should simply state all government deals in future will be done with complete transparency with the taxpayers interest put first.
    +1

    Corrupt deals done by crooks to benefit their mates - not the people - should all be repudiated by a new, clean government (assuming of course that a new government was a) clean and b) actually cared about the interests of the people)

    There's a long, long list going back over many years of corrupt FF rule that need to be investigated and simply torn up if there is any whiff of corruption. That includes the Corrib oil & gas deals; NTR and a a lot of related transport PPP scams; co-location and the corrupt deals given out by Harney to her husband's clients in Quest and UPMC; the bank Guarantee and NAMA; corrupt State property rental agreements; corrupt contracts for the storage of e-voting machines; corrupt appointments to thousands and thousands of non-jobs in local councils and quangos in every corner of the land; corrupt supply contracts for every good and service imaginable; corruption in the Gardaí; corrupt legislation protecting cartels and giving tax breaks to croneys and skewing almost every internal market in favour of the connected (most obviously but by no means limited to land/property and the publicans); corruption corruption corruption CORRUPTION everywhere you look.

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamonn20Bn plus interest View Post
    The late night talks with bankers followed by the offer of a guarantee they say they didn't ask for. 2 cabinet ministers making the decision while the rest phoned in their agreement -including all of those in Dublin e.g., Gormley. He could have cycled there in 25 minutes.
    Who now believes Lenihan and Cowen's incredible version of events on the blanket bank guarantee?

    From Willem Buiter’s Maverecon:
    "When Ireland was about to be swept away by a wave of global financial mistrust triggered by the Irish government’s decision to guarantee effectively all liabilities of its banks, the then German Finance Minister Steinbruck made the amazing statement (which he obviously had not checked with his coalition partners, his Chancellor or his voters) that the Eurozone countries would not let one of their own go into default".
    FT.com | Willem Buiter's Maverecon

    (William Buiter: Professor of European Political Economy, London School of Economics and Political Science; former chief economist of the EBRD, former external member of the MPC; adviser to international organisations, governments, central banks and private financial institutions).

    "...Ireland was about to be swept away by a wave of global financial mistrust triggered by the Irish government’s decision to guarantee effectively all liabilities of its banks."

    Lenihan says the blanket guarantee was a masterstroke! Another confirmation of how shockingly irresponsible it was. Guaranteeing the existing bondholders of the banks, rather than future bondholders, was totally unnecessary and indeed inexplicable. I believe it was the single most irresponsible financial decision of any democratic west European government since World War 2. This is further confirmation of the urgent and immediate need for an independent, fearless, mainly non-Irish & non-Irish led expert team to swiftly investigate the extraordinary events surrounding it.

    It is also confirmation of the even more urgent need to stop the loss of €40Bn through NAMA.

    What do you think?
    Eamonn20Bn plus interest

    1) the way you quote above is confusing, here is the actual text :

    FT

    For small peripheral European nations, the threat of sovereign insolvency is therefore a real one, unless EU fiscal solidarity can be relied upon to bail them out. When Ireland was about to be swept away by a wave of global financial mistrust triggered by the Irish government’s decision to guarantee effectively all liabilities of its banks, the then German Finance Minister Steinbruck made the amazing statement (which he obviously had not checked with his coalition partners, his Chancellor or his voters) that the Eurozone countries would not let one of their own go into default.
    Of course international markets got concerned... the Irish State took on huge / unknown risk with the guarantee.

    2) About the only aspect of the guarantee that anyone serious disagrees with was the decision to guarantee the risk capital (most of it subordinated bonds)

    An inquiry does need to be made.... but on level headed terms

    There's a straight multi billion loss to us here : Anglo: overlooked loans re-categorisation scandal is the biggest and we'll pay for it.... and I find it odd that people don't query actual 100% clear wrongdoing such as that more

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan View Post
    Eamonn20Bn plus interest

    1) the way you quote above is confusing, here is the actual text :

    Of course international markets got concerned... the Irish State took on huge / unknown risk with the guarantee.

    2) About the only aspect of the guarantee that anyone serious disagrees with was the decision to guarantee the risk capital (most of it subordinated bonds)

    An inquiry does need to be made.... but on level headed terms

    There's a straight multi billion loss to us here : Anglo: overlooked loans re-categorisation scandal is the biggest and we'll pay for it.... and I find it odd that people don't query actual 100% clear wrongdoing such as that more

    cYp
    Cyp - so far as I am concerned the Guarantee and the Nationalisation of NAMA were criminal. Anglo Irish is under Gard investigation. There is nothing that would shock me about its dealings. There was sufficient information before Nationalisation to know that dealings were improper and I'm sure that we as yet have no idea of the full extent of the losses for which we were made responsible.

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    Politics.ie Member cyberianpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyeswideopen View Post
    Cyp - so far as I am concerned the Guarantee and the Nationalisation of NAMA were criminal. Anglo Irish is under Gard investigation. There is nothing that would shock me about its dealings. There was sufficient information before Nationalisation to know that dealings were improper and I'm sure that we as yet have no idea of the full extent of the losses for which we were made responsible.
    Anglo at best could be described as a hedge fund abusing a banking license... I'd tend towards describing it as a criminal enterprise

    But if Anglo, or any bank goes bust, these are the people liable to loose money:

    1) Equity from shareholders
    2) Risk capital from bond holders
    3) Deposits/liquidity funding
    4) Common gadener creditors (caterers , equipment etc)

    With Anglo 1 was wiped out...
    as I say the question is is around 2 and why more wasn't wiped out. Nobody questioned this thread much at the time:Anglo Seeks to buy back $4.5bn debt.

    As for 3... I don't think 3 can ever be wiped out... especially not when the Financial Regulator was policing Anglo and saying all fine (meaning enough of 1 & 2 to cover losses)... wiping out 3 would lead to chaos

    As for 4: some money would be got from wiping them out... not much... and most of them were honest Joes

    People have to examine carefully what they mean by "letting a bank go bust"... there's anger out there... but just letting banks go

    .... doesn't actually nab the culprits



    Anglo's Executive management... and one non-executive director are who I have my eyes on... and the thread I referenced above has them cold.

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

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