Thanks for the warm regards but where we differ is that I don't think you "force constructive engagement"
A yes vote will allow us to continue to engage constructively with the other nations of the EU. We have been successful in this over the years, we should be proud of this and should have confidence in our ability to continue to do the same.

You are right that a NO vote will continue the constitutional status quo, but the wider status quo includes the genuine view of 26 nation states that the EU faces challenges and needs reform. This will not go away with a NO vote. The UK government will become anti-Lisbon after their general election. Ireland and the UK will have to re-negotiate their relationship with the EU.

Again my point is a pro-EU but anti-Lisbon voter may find that a NO vote distances Ireland from the EU for a generation.

The French and Dutch peoples voted no to the EU Constitution/Lisbon. The Czech president doesn't believe Lisbon is necessary. The British people don't either, judging by the 63% of them that voted in the euro elections for anti-Lisbon parties. The Polish president is refusing to sign. The German constitutional court is still considering the Treaty. It is far from being the 26-1 situation you describe. The elites are not "Europe". The elites are not "26 countries".

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The British have a majority Eurosceptic view and will vote in a eurosceptic government in their next general election. The other countries you mention above have the right and ability to do the same if they so wish. Libertas failed in all the countries you mentioned above.

My point is that we must do what is best for ourselves and not second guess the desires of foreign electorates. We must also remember that Ireland will have to engage and deal with the leaders of the other countries not with their electorates.

After a NO vote Ireland will find itself caught up with the UK re-negotiating its' relationship with the EU. Ireland will find it has voted for a eurosceptic and anti-EU policy even though many are just anti-Lisbon.

So what percentage in Ireland voted for Pro-Lisbon parties, FT?

I know that in Dublin it was 66%. In East it was 82%. In South it was 72%, and in North-West it was 71%.

You wanna do the maths, or will I?

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

Yes but they were voting on national issues, not EU issues. If they were voting primarily on European issues, the local election results would have differed considerably, and for the pro-Lisbon parties they didn't (except that the SF vote was higher in the euros). Party loyalites in this country are far more rigid than the rest of Europe and you know that well.

And the Irish context is different for another reason too. We are the only country in the EU where ratification of EU constitutional treaties have to be put to a referendum. Hence we can vote in parties we disagree with on EU issues because we know we have this emergency-break when they lose the run of themselves on Europe. I would contend that the absence of such an emergency-break in other countries helps explain why some of them voted for anti-Lisbon parties in much larger proportions than us.

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Got this txt today with a slogan for the No side,

'Vote Yes or else!'

Fine as long as you tie FF in there somewhere .. that'll really get folk worked up

How bout a BIG FF logo (as opposed to the teeny recent ones )

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"I will submit that the economic and political crises that face this country will never be dealt with unless the culture and values of the political and administrative classes undergo profound change" (Emily O'Reilly, Ombudsman/Info Commissioner)

That's a load of crap, and you know it. If the likes of McDonald, Ganley and Sinnott had been elected, you'd have been triumphantly shouting from the rooftops that the result was a glorious re-statement of the Irish people's opposition to the unelected bureaucrats, blah-dy blah-dy blah. Indeed pre-election, you were busy explaining to anyone who'd listen how the strong anti-Lisbon vote would supposedly see them home. But now, when they all lose, you decide that that's not what the Irish people were voting on.

You can't have it both ways. Either you were wrong then, or you're wrong now. Which is it?

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

A parallel might be drawn with Denmark when it used to put European issues to referenda. The pro-EU parties always won around 80% of the vote, but the Danes continued voting no from time to time. It's like that here too. The people regard EU issues as lying within the sphere of influence of the Irish Constitution, and therefore to be dealt with via referenda. That causes them to regard it as safe to vote for pro-Lisbon parties that they agree with on other issues. And I would further add that the results of the Euro elections were not proportional to how the electorate actually voted. In particular, SF won 12% of the vote compared to 14% for Labour, yet Labour won 3 seats to zero for SF. Furthermore, there was an anti-Lisbon seat between Ferris and Sinnott's 1st preferences had their vote not been split by their 2 candidacies. And the same is the case of NW if you add the SF and Ganley votes.

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