No, your 'simple question' is the red herring, a deliberate false argument.
This is not about being in the EU or out of it. It's a vote on a treaty, nothing else.

There is no mechanism to expel us from the EU or to have a two speed EU.
They still have to work with us, and while they may huff and puff to bully us into voting 'yes' the truth is they'll have to accept that we, as members of the EU have a right to have a say in what direction it goes in, and whether we like that decision or not.
They will have to accept that they won't get everything their way, and they will still have to work with us (the unity of the EU wouldn't last very long if they didn't treat a fellow member as an equal)

And if they want to paint us as some kind of humbug 'spoiling it' for the hundreds of millions of other EU citizens, let them all hold referenda on it. Cos I, for one would be interested in hearing what the citizens, rather than the eurocrats think.

Not to mention, that if there's an unfair clause in a commercial contract, you have much better options for redress than if your country ratifies an international treaty.

Accountability moves further and further away.

+1 re George Lee. FG need to run a separate campaign in favour of Lisbon, esp if Dick Roche is still Min for Europe. Every time he appears the No vote increases. By keeping him in position after his woeful performance on Lisbon I, Cowen further shows his inability to lead.

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Toward 2016...in a handcart

Of course its complex........
Buying a house has a ridiculously complicated contract.
What do you expect a contract regulating an EU of 27+ nation States to be.....
If it wasnt extremely complex, there would be something wrong with the bloody thing.
And if it was more principled/aspirational like a Constitution, people would hammer it for being too vague, as allowing almost anything to happen if it was interpreted one way or another......

The point is that, with every complicated contract, the average Joe cannot be expected to understand it fully - they expect to be advised by their politicians, the media, experts of various hues. And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

In any case, as you now admit that most contracts we enter into are not understood, can you please withdraw the "How can people enter into a "contract", when its not understood???!!??!!" sensationalism you were spewing earlier?

Get off the stage would you. There are huge similarities between the USSR and Third Reich for example the huge numbers of innocent people they murdered, the elevation to almost God like status of Hitler and Stalin, etc, etc.

My essential argument is not specifically whether signing up to the Lisbon II treaty will produce a Stalinist State or a New Third Reich or some other specific thing. My essential argument is that the Lisbon II treaty erodes the powers of nation states and places that power within an organization which is accountable only to itself, not the people of Europe. There is no necessity for such a transfer of power and there is no democratic mandate for the transfer of that power. Once that power is transferred through Lisbon II, there may be no means of transferring it back through the sole actions of a national Government and it also may well be the case that once a country is part of an EU operating under Lisbon II, that country will require the permission of the European Union to leave the EU. It may also be the case that once the Lisbon II is ratified, that the Irish Constitution is placed as an inferior document to Lisbon II and any legislation effect contained with in the Lisbon II or any subsequently legislation introduced by the the EU after the ratification of Lisbon II, will automatically be superior to the Irish constitution.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

I group those similarities under "dictatorship". Please keep to the topic of economics.

P.

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It has. It will pass.

Dont be so pessimistic cookie. While this is a severe blow look at what actually happened. Yes MLM lost her seat, but to JH. Joe will be a safer person to have on Tv because of all the people in foxrock, dalkey etc. who voted yes because of the shinners. KS only lost on the last count and she only barely got in last time. DG did rather well after although not quite enough. As i have said this will lead to a diversification of the no campaign and make the planned justin barrett 2 a lot more difficult. In case anyone hadnt noticed there was a deliberate campaign to build up a few people on the no side in preperation for a few last minute "scandals".

Suggesting that a contract for buying a house and the EU constitution are some way similar, in the way that you are apparently suggesting is completely ridiculous. For example, you would not get a nice guy who you would drink with down the pub who was say a graphic designer and knew nothing about contracts to check out the contract, if one was buying a house. Neither would one get somebody who was an expert solicitor but had been disbarred and just released from prison for cheating people buying houses, by telling them rubbish about contracts they were signing. I am sure there are nice, decent and honest people in Fianna Fail but unless they are experts in EU constitutional Law, their opinion is no more valid on the Lisbon II constitution than the fictional graphic designer's opinion on a house contract. Furthermore, why would anyone have any confidence in an argument that, if Fianna Fail thought the Lisbon II treaty was dangerous garbage that should not be touched with a barge pole, they would tell the Irish people to vote against it? Take the proposed blasphemy legislation, Dermot Ahern does not seem to me to be a complete moron, if he is not a complete moron, why would he be proposing such blasphemy legislation when it dangerous, nasty and unnecessary if it is not an attempt to ingratiate Fianna Fail with Saudi Arabia? Also if people are going to own a house they going to need a contract, why is Lisbon II needed, what do they need to do in the European Union that they can not do at the moment?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

That's total nonsense. The people of Ireland have for a long time realised that the EU is good for Ireland. Successive Eurobarometer polls reveal this. What they relised last June is that the Lisbon Treaty may not have been good for both Ireland and the EU. Since then what has happened is that out weak kneed politicians haven't bothered their ar*se addressing the concerns of the irish people, rather they decided to engage in a wool pulling exercise instead.

There is and never was a question over "in or out" or over "ireland's place in Europe" it was about accepting the Lisbon Treaty or rejecting it. Ireland was the only place where the people were allowed decide that and they erred on the side of caution and rejected it. And well done to them for that. The only way our Government could see success last June was to make the referendum something it's not and do as you've done about and fudge the issue.

But that's irrelevant now, It will pass, sadly. At least we had the option to say no, at least we were asked which was thanks to our constitution and the work of Crotty and Co.