yes

More like the Scarlet Pimple.

Not much mate. Not much.

That's a non-sequitur. It assumes that they lie and corrupt absolutely, and that the judicial system is in on it, and the electorate totally powerless to restrain them.


I'm no quitter amigo.




Well if you accept that the vast majority of them are liars, and that I didn't use the word 'all' in my original statement, I used 'they' in the context of the talking heads pushing this treaty.... then where is the untruth?



Actually, neither my original post nor my second said "all" politicians are liars, but to be honest, even the most honest ones I've met have lied, when forced to spout the party line.
As for childish views, I disagree. A child is more inclined to trust authority than the average adult. A paranoid is inclined to trust nobody, and a rational person is inclined to be cautious of any politician, because they can see plenty of examples of double talk from the very talking heads we're expected to listen to.



As you well know, people with a vested interest should not be taken at face value.
Politicians do not always act against our interests. Just when our interests conflict with theirs, and of course, how many can you name that told us when there was a conflict of interest?

If you're so eager to debate the issue, tell me why we should believe the pro-Lisbon politicians, who after all, TELL us that they are in fear of their european colleagues, to give us an objective and honest view of the treaty (I mean c'mon, they're practically telling us that there is duress being applied, by virtue of some threat hanging over our heads)

That would be a ridiculous argument and I have not made it. I have not equated Brian Cowan and Enda Kenny with SS Reichfurher Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heyrdrich. I do not believe they are evil people setting out to harm the people of Ireland. I also believe that whilst they do realize there is no democratic mandate for what the European Union is embarking on and whilst they do realize that the EU structure is essentially undemocratic, they feel that economically it will be in the best interests of Ireland to support this. I believe their confidence of Ireland deriving economic advantage from this project is seriously overly optimistic and I feel that they have majorly underestimated the possibility of the EU turning in to, a transnational terror state. I have a great deal of respect for Neville Chamberlain but it was said of him, that he initially had a problem in recognizing what he was dealing with in Adolf Hitler, in that he had spent much of his career in dealing with British politics rather than international politics and whilst British politics certainly had their rough and tumble aspects, neither he nor his opponents in British politics would be seeking to literally gut the opposition and hang them from the walls by meat hooks and in Hitler he had exactly met the sort of political figure, who operated in exactly that fashion. There is stuff that goes on in Europe, that Cowen and Kenny are completely out of their league getting involved in and Ireland has no business being part of.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

I'll try to avoid a monster post in order to keep things relatively concise and clear.

Of course the pro-Lisbon politicians are the vast vast majority (approx 156-10....?) of our TDs, so even if you qualify the politicians to mean those ones, for all practical purposes you are saying they are all liars.

But just like Adrian, your views come down to a simple premise; the pro-Lisbon politicians are acting against the interests of the people in encouraging them to vote for the Lisbon Treaty.

Again, I pose the same question as I did to Adrian. Please provide a factual basis on which to show this assertion or, failing that, even a reasonable theory which makes some kind of sense.

Yes, the ugly monster has been terminally terminated. It's been stomped all over, it's down, it's dead, even better than Alien vs Predator.

Except... maybe an egg, somewhere....

__________________
My name is Plissken

Adrian, can you please try and be a bit ore consistent. I dont like to be suspicious but when you change your view from one post to another, it is hard to take you seriously.

You first say:

You now say that, in fact, they are acting in our best interests but they are wrong/misguided/out of their league.

While I appreciate the clarification in your above post, you really cant have it both ways; if you have a point to make, make it but stick to it. Dont tell us that almost the entire body politic actually has an agenda that is against our interests and then tell us that they are acting in our interests but have got it wrong. There is a massive difference between the two positions and I'd thank you to think about them before further engaging in this debate.

I have not claimed that Irish politicians are acting against the best interests of the Irish people, in encouraging the Irish people to vote yes to Lisbon II in their own opinion of their actions, I am claiming that in my view they are not acting in the best interests of the Irish people in encouraging them to vote yes to Lisbon II. The opinion that Irish politicians have of their own actions and the opinion I have of their actions, have no requirement to be in conformity.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Sorry, you had just cause to be confused on this, as my position was unclear. Irish politicians do have agendas which are not the same as, what is in the best interests of Ireland. It is quite natural with politicians that they have such agendas, for example I do not feel a politician who opposes Lisbon II will be doing himself any favours by opposing Lisbon II, if he wants to secure directorships with large international companies. Will such politicians support Lisbon II, if they thought it was going to be an absolute catastrophe, no I do not believe there are many Irish politicians who are that corrupt they would, do I believe such issues would influence them towards supporting Lisbon, yes I would.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

That post really is not very clearly put; try and put sme thought into how your posts read before typing them.

However, after some furrowing of brows I think I might have cracked it: you are saying that you believe that politicians are acting against Irleand's interests but that you do not think that they believe that they are acting against Ireland's interests.

Assuming that I am correct in my translation, what did you mean by the word "agenda" when you said:

Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer
Anybody in my opinion that believes the likes of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour doesn't not have an agenda in supporting Lisbon II that is outside of what is in the best interests of Ireland, is not somebody who has a serious understanding of politics.

Does the word "agenda" not suggest an amount of planning or pre-meditation...?

Is it fair to say that you are shifting your position a tad, Adrian.....?