You are quite right; I am being pedantic. I am being pedantic because when people post sensationalism (ie. "How can people enter into a "contract", when its not understood???!!??!!") like you did earlier, such nonsense has to be deconstructed even to the point of being pedantic.

You coiuld easily have made a reasoned point with a little bit of nuance but you didn't; that is why I am being picky.

Adrian, you started that paragraph by making some sense but seemed to have trailed off into tangents and side and non-issues.

It seems your core point is that politicians are not the ideal person to give you advice on the Lisbon "contract"....?

Thats a fair point but not entirely true. Lisbon, as an international treaty, is a political instrument as well as a contract. It is legal, economic, political and social in nature. Therefore, the views of politicians are pertinent. So are the views of lawyers, economists, social commentators and many more.

As you declare that my analogy was ridiculous, I presume you didnt understand it; let me clarify. My analogy with a contract to buy a house is that most people cannot be expected to interpret and understand that contract fully themselves; equally, most people cannot be expected to interpret Lisbon fully, they need specialist advice. The views of many are needed.

Agree re the self fulfilling bit. That's part of the strategy for the yes side.
As for Lisbon 3? I think we would manage to raise a big angry mob to persuade them to drop that idea if they ignored a second NO vote.

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"Don't follow the Exeter?"

No, because they are lying b@st@rds with a conflict of interest, and besides that, they will give their 'advice' in the form of a point scoring debate.
Soundbytes do very little to advance learning of complex issues.

To take your house sale analogy, it would be like taking advice on the contract from a business associate of the vendor or the estate agent employed by that vendor.

You don't see the irony there, do you chuck?

: ) I see your point, but I don't think that 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds' needs to be fleshed out much in this forum, given the volume of evidence, and I did expand on it in my analogy, which I notice you did not address, other than in a quip (and does that count as an tangental soundbyte?)

I disagree I regard all my remarks as relevant.

I would go beyond saying that the pro-treaty politicians are not the ideal folks to get advice on the Lisbon II treaty, I would say the pro-treaty politicians, though not all of them, are akin to folks who turn up in places, they think they are likely to find impressionable young people and proceed to offer them free trials of marijuana in the hope of addicting them to the stuff, for which they then can be charged at commercial market prices, once they have developed an addiction.

I am perfectly aware in general terms what Lisbon II is. And I am not seeking to censor anybody from saying what they want to say about it. That said I believe that the Irish political class that supports Lisbon II, broadly fits to two groups

[ 1 ] People who know that Lisbon II effectively strips Ireland of its sovereignity and don't care because though they believe that Lisbon II strips people of their rights and degrades democracy, they do not believe that the European Union once it has the full powers of the nation states transferred to it, will start to do crazy things. On the other hand, I believe there is a very high likely hood it will start to do crazy things.

[ 2 ] Well intentioned fools who think, Lisbon II is all about democracy, freedom, motherhood and apple pie.

I understood the point of the analogy perfectly but you went way beyond that to suggest that,

certain groups or individuals would have competence to give proper advice and if they had the competence to give proper advice would be interested in giving proper advice even if it conflicted with their personal selfish interest. An argument which I contest and that is where I assert your position becomes ridiculous. Anybody in my opinion that believes the likes of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour do not have an agenda in supporting Lisbon II, that is outside of what is in the best interests of Ireland, is not somebody who in my opinion has a serious understanding of politics.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

If you genuinely consider that 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds' and that, as a result, their views on Lisbon are completely untrustworthy, then what can I say to you.......!

If I genuinely held that view, I could not obey any of the laws of this State as they must be entirely dishonest and I would be forced to leave the country. Why haven't you done so if you genuinely believe that?

That statement is pure soundbyte; it is also completely untrue. The truth is that some are completely corrupt, some are liars, some lie some of the time, some only tell white lies, and one or two dont tell any lies. In short they are just like your doctor or your teacher or your lawyer or just like you and me.

That is the reality. But its so much easier to spew "all politicians are liars" as a supposed basis on which to make a point. It means you dont have to address the issues; you can just blame one set of people and use that as the basis to support the opposite of whatever it is they propose. However, it is simply not credible and it merely shows a childish view of the world.

As for your analogy, comparing politicians with someone related to a the vendor in a house-sale assumes that our politicians are acting against our interests; of course, it is so so easy to work on that basis when all 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds', isnt it.....?

There's no need to repeat the entire thread, Adrian....

This is really the core of your argument, isnt it...?

Can you explain why FF, FG and Labour has an agenda that is outside Ireland's best interests?
Can you provide a factual basis for this assertion?
Can you even provide a logical theory on which to base this?

I admit it.

I was at the secret FG/FF/Labour meeting where we decided that the Lisbon treaty was a good idea because it meant we could have concentration camps in Ireland.

But Adrian somehow found out, and we haven't managed to silence him yet. Damn him, he's like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

P.

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