Has the no to Lisbon campaign in Ireland been terminally damaged?

Chuck de Mawl · #91 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieMonster

There is and never was a question over "in or out" or over "ireland's place in Europe" it was about accepting the Lisbon Treaty or rejecting it.

and it's not about Declan Ganley, or Kathy Sinnott, or Mary Lou McDonald either.

to paraphrase someone else. Neither Lisbon nor Libertas!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieMonster

But that's irrelevant now, It will pass, sadly. At least we had the option to say no, at least we were asked which was thanks to our constitution and the work of Crotty and Co.

Yup, there's a man who doesn't get enough mention or respect, especially compared to the crooks who stitched up this country over the years, and still got re-elected.

Adrian Wainer · #92 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanclub

I group those similarities under "dictatorship". Please keep to the topic of economics.

P.

Sorry, I do not see society being defined by economics. I see society as being defined by its effect on human beings.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

marmurr1916 · #93 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

It will pass. Full stop. Arguing about its merits and demerits here or elsewhere won't make a whit of difference.

The public mood has changed and the majority of people will vote Yes in the next referendum.

It would be an easier victory if the government fell and was replaced by a Fine Gael-Labour coalition.

However, even that's not necessary as the Yes campaign will be led by Fine Gael and Labour anyway.

Brian Crowley is still personally popular enough in Munster to be an asset to the campaign if he puts enough of an effort in.

The Yes side has learned its lesson from the last campaign and will campaign with intensity to ensure a Yes vote.

The Lisbon ratification process in Ireland is essentially a re-run of the Nice ratification process.

Unfortunately, the Yes side last June did not learn the lessons of the first Nice referendum.

This time round they will have learned and hopefully they'll remember in future referendum campaigns.

CookieMonster · #94 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck de Mawl

and it's not about Declan Ganley, or Kathy Sinnott, or Mary Lou McDonald either.

to paraphrase someone else. Neither Lisbon nor Libertas!

Libertas' involvement in the Lisbon Treaty campaign was never about choosing Libertas over something else, it was about arguing the reasons to reject Lisbon. We put forward that choice over the last six months and we got our answer on Friday.

Libertas played a part, a significant one, in the Lisbon treaty campaign but I met far too many good people from all sides of the political divide during the Lisbon campaign to claim credit for the result. And at the end of the day it was the voters who made the final decision, not us.

Verhofstadt · #95 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieMonster

It has. It will pass.

Commiserations CookieMonster, Democracy is a though old game.

Now that we no longer campaigning /spinning etc

Any hope you giving your thoughts on where Libertas got it wrong?

Be interesting to hear the views of "an insider"

Cameleon · #96 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkpower

Of course its complex........
Buying a house has a ridiculously complicated contract.
What do you expect a contract regulating an EU of 27+ nation States to be.....
If it wasnt extremely complex, there would be something wrong with the bloody thing.
And if it was more principled/aspirational like a Constitution, people would hammer it for being too vague, as allowing almost anything to happen if it was interpreted one way or another......

The point is that, with every complicated contract, the average Joe cannot be expected to understand it fully - they expect to be advised by their politicians, the media, experts of various hues. And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

In any case, as you now admit that most contracts we enter into are not understood, can you please withdraw the "How can people enter into a "contract", when its not understood???!!??!!" sensationalism you were spewing earlier?

I think you'll find your been a wee bit pedantic. You clearly understand my point, yet try take a cheap shot. I've tried to simplify my point for the masses. I admitted i wouldnt understand every niche of the lisbon treaty, but have a grasp of its fundamentals and how they affect the Irish, it is simply bad for us longterm.

CookieMonster · #97 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verhofstadt

Commiserations CookieMonster, Democracy is a though old game.

Dick Tuck's statement springs to mind...

Quote:

Any hope you giving your thoughts on where Libertas got it wrong?

Be interesting to hear the views of "an insider"

Probably not, no.

Chuck de Mawl · #98 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieMonster

Libertas' involvement in the Lisbon Treaty campaign was never about choosing Libertas over something else, it was about arguing the reasons to reject Lisbon. We put forward that choice over the last six months and we got our answer on Friday.

Libertas played a part, a significant one, in the Lisbon treaty campaign but I met far too many good people from all sides of the political divide during the Lisbon campaign to claim credit for the result. And at the end of the day it was the voters who made the final decision, not us.

With all due respect, could you explain how the MEP elections gave you your answer on that question?
The next Lisbon referendum will be before the end of the year, and it'll be YES or NO on the day, whereas, the elected MEPs will be in their seats for years voting on a whole range of issues, only some of them related to the issues contained in the Lisbon Treaty.
If I didn't want Ganley in the European Parliament, that is not saying anything about my position on Lisbon. I oppose Lisbon, and so does Ganley, but I'll cast my vote in the referendum and it'll be by ticking a box next to "No /Níl" not one that says "GANLEY, Declan. LIBERTAS".

Declan Ganley has as much right as anyone else to continue to oppose the Lisbon Treaty.
He doesn't need a mandate, cos it's a referendum, not a parliamentary decision.

eurosceptic · #99 (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

I still dont get what the crisis is here for the no side. Yes its a dissappointment but remember the main parties colluded to keep lisbon off the agenda for the euros to prevent an anti-lisbon vote. The replacement of mary lou with joe higgins i think will benefit the no side. Kathy Sinnott only got in by a hairs breadth in 2004 anyway. Libertas failed to win a seat but for a new party only formed last year they did rather well, a lot better than the greens! How often will a party form one year before an election and come close to winning a seat? As i have said a diversification of the no side is needed to prevent some sort of justin barrett 2.

Adrian Wainer · #**100** (**permalink**) 9th June 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by marmurr1916

It will pass. Full stop. Arguing about its merits and demerits here or elsewhere won't make a whit of difference.

The public mood has changed and the majority of people will vote Yes in the next referendum.

It would be an easier victory if the government fell and was replaced by a Fine Gael-Labour coalition.

However, even that's not necessary as the Yes campaign will be led by Fine Gael and Labour anyway.

Brian Crowley is still personally popular enough in Munster to be an asset to the campaign if he puts enough of an effort in.

The Yes side has learned its lesson from the last campaign and will campaign with intensity to ensure a Yes vote.

The Lisbon ratification process in Ireland is essentially a re-run of the Nice ratification process.

Unfortunately, the Yes side last June did not learn the lessons of the first Nice referendum.

This time round they will have learned and hopefully they'll remember in future referendum campaigns.

Human beings are social animals and if people are told that Lisbon II will be voted in, before the referendum takes place and regardless of how they vote it will be voted in, they may well change their mind to vote yes to it, thus it becomes a self fulling prophecy that it will be voted in. The fact of the matter is that, there is nothing inevitable about there being a yes vote to Lisbon II. People can vote No to it and if enough people vote No to it, it will result in a No vote to Lisbon II. It would not surprise me if there is a No vote to Lisbon II, the Irish people are asked to Vote on Lisbon III but there you go, one is dealing with people who have absolute contempt for democracy.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Tourism Ireland launches new friendly Ireland campaign...will the Gardai be included?	myk	Economy	5	9th July 2009 10:07 PM
Green Party terminally ill	alchemist	Elections	17	7th June 2009 03:26 PM
Will Cowen be seriously damaged if Lisbon Falls?	badboy2	Fianna Fáil	44	2nd January 2009 01:55 PM
Lisbon campaign takes to the sky	David Cochrane	Lisbon Treaty	20	8th June 2008 10:57 PM
Yes to Lisbon...what would it mean for the no campaign?	Supermanpolitician	Lisbon Treaty	23	19th April 2008 08:33 PM