ÓSF Travel to Basque Country to Call for End to Oppression

[cain1798]

The lesson would end if you can explain why petrol bombing a bus in Bilbao is different from torching a cop landrover in Creggan? They are both oppressed people? Or maybe you think not, and only the Basques are oppressed. Do you believe Irish republicans no longer have the RIGHT to defend themselves from State oppression?

Okay. To be honest, I don't think I can explain it any more clearly from the first post but I'm giving it one last try.

People suffering oppression have various means of resisting it. They can use force. They can use elections. They can take legal action. They can use non-violent direct action and so on. In certain political contexts, the use of force may be the best and most efficient way of ending that oppression. In other political contexts, it might be the worst way of doing so, the one with the least chance of success. In certain political contexts, the use of elections only may be the best and most efficient way of ending that oppression. In others, it might be a stupid idea the legitimates oppression.

Most republicans in Ireland argue that the use of force is currently counter-productive in opposing, and ending, British oppression. This is not because they are pacifists, but simply because that's their political analysis. It is perfectly reasonable for the same person to support people using force in a DIFFERENT country with a DIFFERENT political context and a DIFFERENT balance of forces. It is not hypocritical, it is recognition of DIFFERENT circumstances.

To conclude, the use of force is a tool. Nothing more. If you're trying to put a nail into a piece of wood, you use a hammer, not a screwdriver. This does not mean you oppose the use of screwdrivers, just that a hammer is more suitable for this job. The chap next to you might be loosening screws with a screwdriver. You do not force him to use a hammer because you're using one.

Seriously Bog, if you can't grasp this, I'm a little bewildered. Next you'll be asking me to describe blue.

[Bacon-Egg]

My link was referring to a statement from PSF in Derry condemning a petrol bomb attack on Crown Forces in Creggan yesterday by Republican youths. Just pointing out the blinding hypocrisy with this thread.

It's not hypocrisy. You might call it a lot of other things from your point of view, but 'hypocrisy' it isn't.

Those of us who believe that the use of force is a tactic, not a principle, know that there are times when it was, and may be, justified. When it is not, it is counter-productive to use it.

Now, you reject the Sinn Féin analysis. Fine, dead on. But the analysis is based on the notion that the use of force is currently counter-productive to achieving republican objectives in this political context. The Basques on the other hand, believe that some forms of militant action are currently justified and useful in their current political context.

You shape your tactics to the political context in which you operate. There is no 'One size fits all' strategy for a revolutionary. It is perfectly legitimate to support all out armed revolutionary violence in one country, and to oppose it in another, because the political contexts in each may be different. With force necessary in one, and counter-productive in the other.

By all means, condemn Sinn Féin and it's analysis and so on. You're perfectly entitled to say their analysis is entirely wrong. But to call it hypocritical, is to misunderstand the use of force, and the purpose behind using it, in revolutionary struggle.

Hear ends the lesson, well put Cain i could of not said it better (well i probably could have) myself.

The lesson would end if you can explain why petrol bombing a bus in Bilbao is different from torching a cop landrover in Creggan? They are both oppressed people? Or maybe you think not, and only the Basques are oppressed. Do you believe Irish republicans no longer have the RIGHT to defend themselves from State oppression?

are you for real?

[Bacon-Egg]

The lesson would end if you can explain why petrol bombing a bus in Bilbao is different from torching a cop landrover in Creggan? They are both oppressed people? Or maybe you think not, and only the Basques are oppressed. Do you believe Irish republicans no longer have the RIGHT to defend themselves from State oppression?

Okay. To be honest, I don't think I can explain it any more clearly from the first post but I'm giving it one last try.

People suffering oppression have various means of resisting it. They can use force. They can use elections. They can take legal action. They can use non-violent direct action and so on. In certain political contexts, the use of force may be the best and most efficient way of ending that oppression. In other political contexts, it might be the worst way of doing so, the one with the least chance of success. In certain political contexts, the use of elections only may be the best and most efficient way of ending that oppression. In others, it might be a stupid idea the legitimates oppression.

Most republicans in Ireland argue that the use of force is currently counter-productive in opposing, and ending, British oppression. This is not because they are pacifists, but simply because that's their political analysis. It is perfectly reasonable for the same person to support people using force in a DIFFERENT country with a DIFFERENT political context and a DIFFERENT balance of forces. It is not hypocritical, it is recognition of DIFFERENT circumstances.

To conclude, the use of force is a tool. Nothing more. If you're trying to put a nail into a piece of wood, you use a hammer, not a screwdriver. This does not mean you oppose the use of screwdrivers, just that a hammer is more suitable for this job.

Seriously Bog, if you can't grasp this, I'm a little bewildered. Next you'll be asking me to describe blue.

well said chara, but i think your fighting a lost cause there

[Bogwarrior]

It all sound too similar to Fianna Failers who claim that the Old IRA of the 20s were legitimate but the Provo campaign was not. Or the Americans who celebrate George Washington and condemned the Provos. Or even John Hume who hugged Mandela in the nineties whilst condemning the Provos.
Cosy support for direct action so long as
A.It happened years ago. or
B. It's miles away.
I grasp what your saying Cain, but you catch my drift also?

[cain1798]

It all sound too similar to Fianna Failers who claim that the Old IRA of the 20s were legitimate but the Provo campaign was not. Or the Americans who celebrate George Washington and condemned the Provos. Or even John Hume who hugged Mandela in the nineties whilst condemning the Provos.
Cost support for direct action so long as
A.It happened years ago. or
B. It's miles away.
I grasp what your saying Cain, but you catch my drift also?

I think so. I'm not trying to change your position on the use of force. I can perfectly see where you come from on saying that force is justified in Ireland today, even if I disagree.

I just don't accept that it's hypocritical to support force in one context and oppose it in a completely different one. Either position or both could be wrong, but you can hold both as long as the political contexts are different and not be a hypocrite.

I do agree that the Irish left has historically held that the further away a revolutionary struggle is the more legitimate is the use of force. (Trots ) I just don't think the argument had been made that this is the case in this situation.

[Seamus]

Can SF not accept that referring to 'Micro organisations' makes them sound arrogant and complacent. I actually prefer SF, for all their flaws to the 32 CSM and RSF, but all this brow beating about how much bigger they are, makes them sound like a pre-pubescent gang of Man United supporters telling supporters of less successful teams that '(insert team name hear) are s-h-i-t!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while yes, I wish 32CSM and RSF supporters would change the record, some SF people are no better. I know people in OSF, who stopped talking to me since I left. Do I like it? No, but if they want to be petty, so be it. I'm not going to stoop to their level.

Even if the provos stopped referring to us as micro-groups publicly they'd still do it privately regardless.
I geniunely dont understand how the provo leaning element in here get a bit miffed at peoples criticism of them.
When you put it in the context of our members being attacked and threatened with abductions and beatings and now even worse the likely hood of the state arm having a pop at us it makes me laugh to be quite honest.
Dod you dont know the meaning of the word petty yet if thats all that has been occuring.

Remarkably, nothing similar has ever been done by RSF/32CSM supporters about our prisoners. Indeed, in Dublin anyway, their supporters refuse to donate to support our prisoners while expecting, and generally getting, a few bob from us for them.

Firstly with the greatest respect to rsf, we are two separate organisations and they have there opinions and views which i respect as they arent undermining my own.
So cain what the ************************ do you want from us?
Your party is earning an obscene amount of money from corporate america,british government and the other activities and you expect people who are being hounded by the branch on both sides of the border and the other thuggish bastards to give what little money they have to your people?

Im personally civil to anyones political view, always have especially since my father is a fine gaeler but i refuse to be civil to people who would have us arrested,beaten or intimidated.

[edifice.]

I think so. I'm not trying to change your position on the use of force. I can perfectly see where you come from on saying that force is justified in Ireland today, even if I disagree.

I just don't accept that it's hypocritical to support force in one context and oppose it in a completely different one. Either position or both could be wrong, but you can hold both as long as the political contexts are different and not be a hypocrite.

I do agree that the Irish left has historically held that the further away a revolutionary struggle is the more legitimate is the use of force. (Trots ) I just don't think the argument had been made that this is the case in this situation.

There's a huge difference in saying that force is strategically unjustified as opposed to saying that it is without legitimate foundation. The latter is PSF's position by default.

[factual]

It all sound too similar to Fianna Failers who claim that the Old IRA of the 20s were legitimate but the Provo campaign was not. Or the Americans who celebrate George Washington and condemned the Provos. Or even John Hume who hugged Mandela in the nineties whilst condemning the Provos.
Cost support for direct action so long as
A.It happened years ago. or
B. It's miles away.
I grasp what your saying Cain, but you catch my drift also?

I think so. I'm not trying to change your position on the use of force. I can perfectly see where you come from on saying that force is justified in Ireland today, even if I disagree.

I just don't accept that it's hypocritical to support force in one context and oppose it in a completely different one. Either position or both could be wrong, but you can hold both as long as the political contexts are different and not be a hypocrite.

I do agree that the Irish left has historically held that the further away a revolutionary struggle is the more legitimate is the use of force. (Trots ) I just don't think the argument had been made that this is the case in this situation.

Not sure I agree as after all Sinn Fein have recently been urging peaceful methods in many many places and for example the Sri Lanka conflict.

Martin McGuinness stated "I was able to share with the Tamil leadership the experiences of the Irish peace process. My core message was that both sides need to act decisively to prevent the downward spiral into all-out conflict. The reality is that, just as in Ireland, there can be no military victory and that the only alternative to endless conflict is dialogue, negotiations and accommodation."

[edifice.]

Not sure I agree as after all Sinn Fein have recently been urging peaceful methods in many many places and for example the Sri Lanka conflict.

Martin McGuinness stated "I was able to share with the Tamil leadership the experiences of the Irish peace process. My core message was that both sides need to act decisively to prevent the downward spiral into all-out conflict. The reality is that, just as in Ireland, there can be no military victory and that the only alternative to endless conflict is dialogue, negotiations and accommodation."

And a big group hug!

[Stíofán]

Two Ógra activists were in the Basque Country last weekend to extend the solidarity of Ógra Shinn Féin to their comrades in SEGI, the Basque nationalist left youth organisation....

Who paid for this free holiday to Spain? How'd you decide who went?