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  1. #1
    robut robut is offline

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    "Trump clearly wants to pull the US out of NATO" .. this week?

    DAN SHAPIRO -Former U.S. Amb. to Israel (2011-2017)

    https://twitter.com/DanielBShapiro/s...35137708544001

    1. I don't think we are fully grappling with the possibility that we could be on the on the cusp of a completely new era, a fundamental reshaping of the international order. And I don't mean over the course of the Trump Administration. I mean by next week.

    2. It sounds outlandish to even say it out loud, and some can easily call this hyperbole. I hope to God it does not happen. But we would be insane not to grapple with the possibility.

    3. Trump clearly wants to pull the US out of NATO. He doesn't believe in the alliance (or any alliances); he thinks our allies take advantage of us; he complains that NATO is worse than NAFTA(whatever that means); he seeks purely transactional relations with our closest partners.

    4. Should other NATO members meet their 2% of GDP defense spending targets? Absolutely. Trump is on solid ground to push for it. But to consistently trash allies, undervalue their contributions to our security, threaten to withdraw US troops -- that's him wanting out.

    5. Perhaps most damaging is that his rhetoric is building up hostility to NATO among his supporters. It's a huge breach in the consensus American support for the alliance that has undergirded Western security for 70 years, and it won't disappear when Trump does.

    6. What's more, his passionate desire for friendship with Putin is emboldening Russia & risks doing further damage to European security. If he recognizes Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, if he seeks to tone down sanctions on Russia over its aggression vs Ukraine, watch out.

    7. This could play out in the next 2 weeks. If he sabotages the NATO summit the way he did the G-7, don't be surprised if he actually makes a move toward exiting NATO. Think he won't? On what basis? Because his staff restrains him? Because of his strategic understanding? Please.

    8. If we get there, the implications are innumerable & terrifying: Russia pawing at Baltics &other E & C European states; breakdown of joint defense structures; withdrawal of US troops from Euro bases; less restrained German foreign policy; weaker US power projection to Eurasia.

    9. That just scratches the surface. We honestly cannot begin to imagine living in a new era without these international organizing structures. Because for all of NATO's challenges, no sane person or American political leader has or would contemplate such a reckless move.

    10. But it could happen. Our President doesn't know the history or strategy, doesn't listen to experts, personalizes everything & makes it transactional, & loves the drama of the outrageous move that dominates cable TV coverage. For him, pulling out of NATO is all gain, no cost.

    11. Even as I write this, it sounds fantastical. I will be the happiest person on the planet if I look back at this thread and say, man, you were way overreacting. But we need to be ready for this awful scenario to play out.

    12. I repeat: we are potentially on the verge of a wildly dangerous cascade of events that will devastate our interests, weaken our leadership, abandon our allies, embolden our adversaries, and make the world a darker and more brutal place.

    13. We have done no planning for this course of action. No one thinks it is a good idea. But one man, whose knowledge and values are wanting, whose motivation is suspect, and whose supporters follow him blindly, could take us there. END
    So IS Dan being alarmist? Is he over egging this?

    Is it SO WHAT, if USA pulls out of NATO? Meh? NATO is a talking shop anyway and has gone beyond its sell by date?

    Over to you ..
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  2. #2
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    NATO is a compulsory weaponry buying racket - and Trump is complaining because not everybody is buying.

    A threat needs to be manufactured so as to drive up weaponry sales.

    The media will do all it can to make weapons-making profitable again.
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  3. #3
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
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    You cant sustain a mutual defence pact on ongoing disarmament and obsolescence. I support NATO but Germany needs to cop on to itself and actually have planes that can get off the ground.
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  4. #4
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    The Bouncer principle, is central to NATO.

    Basically, so as to justify their payments, they need to pick a fight, so as to continue receiving taxpayers money.

    The real threat is people who believe that somebody who lived in the Arabian desert in the 6th century, received the only message that mattered, from the only devine being that ever existed AND that there will be no argument - no compromise, or no consideration of any idea, that exists outside of that narrow worldview.

    It is all held together by very tenous threads, it lacks evidence, and it is completely the polar opposite of civilization....and it is sitting on top of the world's lowest cost hydrocarbon reserves. So it compromises our modern material existence.

    Sam Harris is correct....it is the motherload of bad ideas.

    We only need weapons because there cannot be an open discussion on the matter. If there was an open discussion the issue would be resolved in a decade, and the embarrassment would be overcome for all those living in fear.
    Last edited by Analyzer; 11th July 2018 at 01:16 PM.
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  5. #5
    robut robut is offline

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    https://twitter.com/TheBrofucius/sta...03581629706240

    Can’t wait to see Trump’s Face when NATO Countries Counter with. “Fine. We expect You to withdraw all Your Military from NATO Country. Or Start Paying Rent. We Figure Ramstein alone will cost 1.5 Billion a month in rent. For the most part. US Military pay no, to token rent.

    From a tactical standpoint. If NATO Countries wanted to play hardball. They are all well within their rights to restrict air space, Cancel/Restrict Free Travel of Naval Ships. Have up to 700 Based and installations closed. Enforce Rent,Taxes, Utilities. To any and all US Bases.
    A point??
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  6. #6
    SeanieFitz SeanieFitz is offline
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    Fox News has summarised it in language that Trump and his supporters will understand

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b07aea75454510

    Fox News politics editor Chris Stirewalt had a colorful way of describing President Donald Trump’s trip to Europe this week.

    Stirewalt told anchor Shannon Bream that Republicans in the U.S. Senate “will not stop Donald Trump from undermining NATO” nor will they be able to prevent the president “from realigning U.S. foreign policy to be more favorable towards Russia.”

    “He is going to do it,” Stirewalt predicted.

    In comments posted on Mediaite, he said:

    “And the Republicans who say, ‘Well, we have a broad foreign policy apparatus and we forced him to impose these sanctions, and we forced him to do these things.’ He’s going to fly into Brussels like a seagull. He is going to defecate all over everything, squawk and fly away is what he’s going to do in Brussels. And the Europeans are going to continue to say to each other, ‘We don’t have a reliable partner in the U.S. government right now.’”
    He also said Trump will succeed in realigning U.S. policy away from Europe and toward Russia. The only question is whether it’s temporary or lasting.
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  7. #7
    robut robut is offline

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    https://twitter.com/DanielBShapiro/s...85118299381761

    Trump is laying the predicate to withdraw the US from NATO, or at minimum, severely weaken its cohesion while making major concessions to Putin.
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  8. #8
    robut robut is offline

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    McConnell says he is not worried about Trump withdrawing US from NATO

    The top Republican in the U.S. Senate, Mitch McConnell, on Wednesday said he was not worried that President Donald Trump will withdraw the country from NATO, as Trump, who has a history of fiercely criticizing and occasionally scrapping international agreements, traveled to a major summit of NATO members.

    McConnell also said "there is nothing inherently wrong" about Trump meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin while he is in Europe. The two leaders plan to meet alone, without any extra staff.
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  9. #9
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Cant see it happening TBH


    At most Trump will last until 2025


    - NATO has been around for decades and decades
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  10. #10
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    You cant sustain a mutual defence pact on ongoing disarmament and obsolescence. I support NATO but Germany needs to cop on to itself and actually have planes that can get off the ground.
    NATO unity is a far bigger deterent to Russia et al, than planes are. Trump is tearing that unity apart, playing to his largely brain dead base
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