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  1. #21
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Why's Woodrow Wilson ranked so highly, he was a terrible Pesident.
    He wasn't a great president but he defeated the Kaiser. Without US help the Allies would have collapsed in 1918. Also he was the most important factor in creating the League of Nations - though the Republican Congress refused to let the US join. He also supported the principle of self-determination, which later become an essential part of international law in Chapter I - Purposes and Principles of Charter of the United Nations.
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  2. #22
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnobe View Post
    I'm not sure about Obama personally, I think he had the potential to be a top 10 president, but he kinda blew it. He had huge majorities and a huge mandate, incredibly popular guy, but I'm not convinced what was passed under him ranks as a "all time great" material, (national Romneycare and Dodd Frank?) and even a lot of his legacy (particularly that on climate change for example) is at the mercy of Trump/GOP unfortunately and needed another follow up Democratic president like what with Reagan had with Bush.

    He also escalated the war in Afghanistan needlessly (33,000 troops under Bush, a then record, to 100,000) and never properly ended it. I don't want to be too harsh on the guy, I think overall he was a good president, and his current ranking of a solid 2nd quartile president is correct, but I wouldn't put him any higher.

    I mean compare his 8 years to the 8 years of JFK/LBJ with Civil rights, Voting rights, Great society, Medicare/Medicaid, sweeping Immigration reform, Apollo Moon landing missions etc, I mean that SCREAMS top 10/1st quartile from a democratic perspective, and so I would rank those 8 years ahead Obama's (still very good) 8 years. The 1960s democrats were superb transformational/society changing ones. Obama was quite a competent, but safe president for me.

    It's early days, but there's no guarantee Obama is even going to be ranked higher than Clinton. Its weird because Clinton wouldn't be idolised the way JFK or Obama would be, but his ranking somewhere between 10-15, knocking on the door for the top 10 is very impressive.
    Too early to say, really.

    It is easy to talk about "huge majorities", but Jimmy Carter began with majorities in House and Senate, also, but frittered away his chances. Obama worked for 6 years with a Republican House of Representatives, and for almost the same length of time with a Republican Senate, yet had significant achievements in both foreign and domestic policy, even with a party that hated his guts, and would almost stop at nothing to do him down ("Muslim terrorist from Kenya" etc etc).

    You forget that each President has to be taken in the context of the situation when he took office. Clinton faced a comparatively mild recession compared with the bank and motor industry meltdowns that Obama faced, in the teeth of a country deeply divided over the Iraq war and the use of torture. Yet Obama not only rescued the economy, but did what Clinton (and LBJ and Truman) tried and failed - to get a Healthcare measure through both Houses and onto his desk. Even the God-like Trump has failed to do that with his majorities.
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  3. #23
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeful View Post
    They'll need a new 5th category for Trump.
    Can I suggest "most unqualified and most idiotic".
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  4. #24
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Why's Woodrow Wilson ranked so highly, he was a terrible Pesident.
    Never heard of Woodrow Wilson's 14 Points?

    Re-ordered Europe after WWI, pretty well responsible for the map we see today (except for Yugoslavia, and Poland).

    The Ideal of a "International Order" with states operating under International Law mediated by a world body like the UN is pretty much Woodrow Wilson's godchild, though mostly implemented by FDR and Truman. Not Top 5 maybe, but in world importance and singular achievements, definitely Top 10.

    PS Domestically, Wilson also started the Federal Reserve Bank which eventually became a backstop manager of the US economy. Having been a Professor and President at Princeton, he may be academically smartest President ever.
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  5. #25
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Never heard of Woodrow Wilson's 14 Points?

    Re-ordered Europe after WWI, pretty well responsible for the map we see today (except for Yugoslavia, and Poland).

    The Ideal of a "International Order" with states operating under International Law mediated by a world body like the UN is pretty much Woodrow Wilson's godchild, though mostly implemented by FDR and Truman. Not Top 5 maybe, but in world importance and singular achievements, definitely Top 10.

    PS Domestically, Wilson also started the Federal Reserve Bank which eventually became a backstop manager of the US economy. Having been a Professor and President at Princeton, he may be academically smartest President ever.
    True but he also introduced racial segregation in federal agencies, and in a meeting with civil rights leaders told them segregation was good for both Whites and Blacks.
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  6. #26
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    True but he also introduced racial segregation in federal agencies, and in a meeting with civil rights leaders told them segregation was good for both Whites and Blacks.
    Yes, a cold descendant of Scots-Irish Norn Irelanders.

    He was a Southerner, with his people Confederates from Georgia and South Carolina, he was 8 years old when the Civil War ended, so he suffered from those limitations of racism. However, his political career was in New Jersey, so he presented himself more like a Northern technocrat than a Southern populist.

    His worst moment was showing the pro-KKK movie Birth of a Nation in the White House and calling it "history with lightning". Possibly the most un-factual and racist big-budget movie ever. His years in the White House were followed by a resurgence of the KKK not just in the South, but in the North also.
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  7. #27
    Gnobe Gnobe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Too early to say, really.

    It is easy to talk about "huge majorities", but Jimmy Carter began with majorities in House and Senate, also, but frittered away his chances. Obama worked for 6 years with a Republican House of Representatives, and for almost the same length of time with a Republican Senate, yet had significant achievements in both foreign and domestic policy, even with a party that hated his guts, and would almost stop at nothing to do him down ("Muslim terrorist from Kenya" etc etc).

    You forget that each President has to be taken in the context of the situation when he took office. Clinton faced a comparatively mild recession compared with the bank and motor industry meltdowns that Obama faced, in the teeth of a country deeply divided over the Iraq war and the use of torture. Yet Obama not only rescued the economy, but did what Clinton (and LBJ and Truman) tried and failed - to get a Healthcare measure through both Houses and onto his desk. Even the God-like Trump has failed to do that with his majorities.
    Clinton did have a milder recession, but he did get a boom, 4 consecutive years of 4% GDP growth, 23 million jobs (a post war record) and a budget surplus - not bad. Obama rescued the economy, but he never got a boom like Reagan or Clinton did, but as you say he started in a worse position.

    Wait you say LBJ failed to get healthcare?? Is that the same LBJ that passed Medicare (in effect single payer healthcare for over 65's payed through a lifetime on the payroll tax) the uninsured rate with no access to healthcare in that age group (the most vulnerable age group) was 40%, now its almost virtually 0%. Not to mention Medicaid also (which is what Obamacare uses to lower the uninsured rate).
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  8. #28
    Who is John Galt? Who is John Galt? is offline

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    In terms of being influential, Kennedy deserves top spot because he (admittedly under USSR pressure) started the space race and led the way to the exploration of the cosmos.
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  9. #29
    General Urko General Urko is offline
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    Primus inter pares = LINCOLN!

    2nd FDR

    3rd Washington
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  10. #30
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is online now
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    Carter deserves credit for the Israel-Egypt peace deal though it cost him with the Jewish vote in 1980. But otherwise he was a weak president, which is embodied by the disastrous and incompetent attempt to rescue the hostages from Iran. I saw a documentary on this last year and it failed in part because if turf wars between the airforce and navy who both wanted the credit and to exclude the other from different roles. His Community Reinvestment Act may have sowed the seeds of the 2008 crash.
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