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  1. #21
    razorblade razorblade is offline

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    Is everyone from the past simply going to be erased because of something they did that someone doesnt approve of, because its going to be a real long list of candidates, including the very 1st president of the USA.
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  2. #22
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wascurito View Post
    They lived a century apart. During Washington's presidency, the northern states were well on their way to abolishing slavery.
    Yes but many Northerners had doubts about going the whole hog and forcing the South to abolish it. General George B McClennan at the start of the war considered slavery a constitutionally-protected institution. Lincoln was originally elected on a manifesto to stop the spread of slavery, not abolish it. Indeed if the South had not seceded, in my opinion slavery would have survived longer as the pro-slavery Senators and Congressmen would still have been there to vote against it.
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  3. #23
    Wascurito Wascurito is online now
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    Donald Trump blames all sides.

    Then moves on to talk about the unemployment rate.
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  4. #24
    Researchwill Researchwill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
    Is everyone from the past simply going to be erased because of something they did that someone doesnt approve of, because its going to be a real long list of candidates, including the very 1st president of the USA.
    It happens every now and again Irish street names being changed in 1920's Russian statutes being dragged down in the 1990's. If people want to voice their view that they do not like something so be it. There is a guy in Cork who wants to change any street called after Victoria and is up in arms about plans to call the part of the city built in the Victorian style the "Victorian Quarter" I say he has as much right to that view as any revisionist has. But I would not agree with someone running a car over him for his views.
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  5. #25
    Wascurito Wascurito is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    Yes but many Northerners had doubts about going the whole hog and forcing the South to abolish it. General George B McClennan at the start of the war considered slavery a constitutionally-protected institution. Lincoln was originally elected on a manifesto to stop the spread of slavery, not abolish it. Indeed if the South had not seceded, in my opinion slavery would have survived longer as the pro-slavery Senators and Congressmen would still have been there to vote against it.
    This is about George Washington vs Robert E Lee. Washington was a person of his time (as we all are) and his attitudes were formed by the mores and ethics of his time (as are ours). However, he didn't stand in the way of the onward march of progress and equality.

    Lee did. Actively and violently. He was a reactionary who wanted to stop the clock or even turn it back. Thon's the difference, Ms Enda.
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  6. #26
    PeacefulViking PeacefulViking is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    The attempts to remove Confederate statues seem to have provoked extreme reactions and divisions in US society. If Lee is to be removed then where does it stop? Renaming Washington DC because Washington owned slaves?

    Antifa have awoken a sleeping giant with their months of political terrorism against conservatives and Trump supporters. They forget conservatives in the Red States are heavily armed.

    Its also clear from the slogans shouted by the White Nationalists that concerns about immigration featured strongly in their concerns. So clearly, there needs to be a debate on multiculturalism, though naturally I condemn racism and violence.
    Well, should every monument ever raised be kept? Presumably you don't think that so somewhere a line has to be drawn, or more likely we muddle through with democratic decisions being made on the local level.

    Also, it is important to keep a couple of things in mind. Lee is remembered for his role in the army of the Confederacy, ie for committing treason to preserve slavery. Washington DC was not named so to honor George Washington's slaveholding. Also, the raising of statues of confederate "heroes" was part of a racist movement to celebrate/show that white rule in the South had been restored. They may look more classy than a burning cross but the racist intent and the implicit threat to uppity blacks were there all the same. If black people want to remove these statues now it is not because they are snowflakes.
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  7. #27
    Kastavo Kastavo is offline

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    Thought this headline of the racist torch bearers was quite good.

    This Is What 'Oppressed' White Men Look Like | HuffPost
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  8. #28
    Hewson Hewson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    That is not a reason to go tearing down historical monuments and once we start where do we stop? What about Washington and Jefferson, both slave owners? Should the Washington monument be demolished and the city renamed? Do we eliminate every reminder of British presence from the streets of Dublin because it offends a minority, and in the process destroy an important part of our heritage? Not content with designing their own present 'reality' the snowflakes now want to reconstruct history. And that is simply not possible.
    Sailor, just as Germany won't tolerate memorials to the slavery imposed on Europe's Jews by Hitler neither should America glorify its shameful past. Not long after I came into the world it was still illegal for African Americans to sit beside whites on buses in some southern states, and i haven't hit pension age yet.

    If you support the elevation of slavery enablers like Lee to hero status then, logically, you support the right of the KKK and the far right to impose their poisonous bile on society.
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  9. #29
    Wascurito Wascurito is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
    Is everyone from the past simply going to be erased because of something they did that someone doesnt approve of, because its going to be a real long list of candidates, including the very 1st president of the USA.
    When the USA gets to a point where no-one gives a flying f--k about race and the colour of one's skin, then people can start talking about the nicer side of Robert E Lee and his ilk.

    Sadly, the USA is nowhere near that point.
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  10. #30
    wombat wombat is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeacefulViking View Post
    Also, the raising of statues of confederate "heroes" was part of a racist movement to celebrate/show that white rule in the South had been restored. They may look more classy than a burning cross but the racist intent and the implicit threat to uppity blacks were there all the same. If black people want to remove these statues now it is not because they are snowflakes.
    That summarises it perfectly. My only comment is that times have changed and in some places the statues are simply commemorating local heroes of the majority white population.
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