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  1. #21
    Dadaist Dadaist is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by toughbutfair View Post
    Isn't their a "Q" on the end of the list now. It seems to be growing every year. They shouldn't be pandered to.
    The history of transgender etc., stretches back to the Assyrians in 650 BC. Throughout history a 'third gender' has been recognised as the Hijra in India stretching back to antiquity, with the Hindu god Shiva notably being of the 'third gender. The Kama Sutra also points to a 'third gender'. From ancient Persia right up to modern Iran, this 'third gender' has been recognised. Following the collapse of the Shah via the Islamic revolution, and with the backing of Khomeini from as early as 1963: transgender individuals were officially recognized by the government and allowed to undergo sex reassignment surgery. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognised on the birth certificate.
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  2. #22
    toughbutfair toughbutfair is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadaist View Post
    The history of transgender etc., stretches back to the Assyrians in 650 BC. Throughout history a 'third gender' has been recognised as the Hijra in India stretching back to antiquity, with the Hindu god Shiva notably being of the 'third gender. The Kama Sutra also points to a 'third gender'. From ancient Persia right up to modern Iran, this 'third gender' has been recognised. Following the collapse of the Shah via the Islamic revolution, and with the backing of Khomeini from as early as 1963: transgender individuals were officially recognized by the government and allowed to undergo sex reassignment surgery. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognised on the birth certificate.
    Very interesting post. Thanks.
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  3. #23
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadaist View Post
    Under Jeff Sessions the Justice Department have withdrawn guidance issued to schools on the treatment of transgender students, signaling that it would no longer consider their rights to be protected under a 1972 civil rights law.

    The Department of Health and Human Services is now under Tom Price who has been openly opposed to gay rights as a senator, and whose civil rights office is now run by Roger Severino, who last year accused the Obama administration of attempting to 'coerce everyone, including children, into pledging allegiance to a radical new gender ideology'.

    The incoming Secretary of the Army, Mark Green, replaces the openly gay Eric Fanning who has advocated for transgender people to openly serve in the army. Mark Green last year called being transgender a disease.

    Also, under the new admin the US Census Bureau has ditched plans to include questions about sexual orientation and gender identity in the 2020 Census.
    I think it was the Department of Education, and it was before Jeff Sessions was confirmed, as far as I know.

    Obama's guidelines (which had only been in place since the previous May) were a total overreach, an attempt to re-write Civil Rights law (to mean the opposite of what had been intended) without going through Congress, and had already been halted by a Federal Court well before Trump took office.
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  4. #24
    Dadaist Dadaist is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    I think it was the Department of Education, and it was before Jeff Sessions was confirmed, as far as I know.

    Obama's guidelines (which had only been in place since the previous May) were a total overreach, an attempt to re-write Civil Rights law (to mean the opposite of what had been intended) without going through Congress, and had already been halted by a Federal Court well before Trump took office.
    The guidelines were revoked mid-February this year. There are no current proposed guidelines, afaik.

    If there were legal issues with the original guidelines, why not amended the guidelines instead of ditching them completely.
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  5. #25
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadaist View Post
    The guidelines were revoked mid-February this year. There are no current proposed guidelines, afaik.

    If there were legal issues with the original guidelines, why not amended the guidelines instead of ditching them completely.
    Why the need for Guidelines? The purpose of these type of executive guidelines, as far as I know, is to facilitate the smooth operation of the law and or to give clarification where the law is ambiguous. The law is not ambiguous here - it is lawful in federally funded educational institutions to provide separate facilities - showers, locker rooms, dormitories, and sports facilities - for males and females, as long as these facilities are broadly equal (i.e. one sex is not being treated less favourably).

    The idea that e.g. certain males (transwomen) should be treated as female is entirely outside the scope of this law (and could be said to opposed to the underlying premise of this law, which would appear to be about protecting privacy). If anyone is unhappy with the current law, of lack of it, regarding transgender people and access to facilities, then get the law changed/a new law enacted. A President seeking to write a new law by "guidelines" is not right.

    Edit - having said that, I think there would be no problem with a guidelines or a request that transgender situations be treated sensitively as far as possible, and to try to reach satisfactory solutions taking into account the wishes of all concerned. That is very far from what Obama's guidelines did though.
    Last edited by talkingshop; 1st July 2017 at 02:51 PM.
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  6. #26
    toastedheretic toastedheretic is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crant View Post
    One of the problems now is that gay parent couples who adopt children are influencing those kids towards a gay lifestyle. I voted for marriage equality and was glad it passed and know one male gay married couple. All great, but children should be allow form their own sexuality. So we need to be careful.

    The other problem is that (I think) gay people tend to be mote left wing than straight people and worse still they tend to be easier fooled by renewable energy scam artists and vote left /green. Now its just an opinion, I can't back it up much.
    https://stopthesethings.com/2017/06/...ollar-mistake/
    Here ya go can't, away and get you're rocks off....


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  7. #27
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadaist View Post
    The history of transgender etc., stretches back to the Assyrians in 650 BC. Throughout history a 'third gender' has been recognised as the Hijra in India stretching back to antiquity, with the Hindu god Shiva notably being of the 'third gender. The Kama Sutra also points to a 'third gender'. From ancient Persia right up to modern Iran, this 'third gender' has been recognised. Following the collapse of the Shah via the Islamic revolution, and with the backing of Khomeini from as early as 1963: transgender individuals were officially recognized by the government and allowed to undergo sex reassignment surgery. As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognised on the birth certificate.
    Hindu culture is incredibly evil by European standards- for instance the practice of dedicating a girl after she has her first period to what I would see as a demon and making her a prostitute to pay for a temple, human sacrifice and the most incredible dehumanizing racism. I knew a girl who was a fluffy very liberal Anglican who went to do voluntary work in India and she returned a five point Calvinist- bringing up what they do over there to say we should do similar is a very bad idea. I'm actually a big fan of Ruhollah Khomeini, in fact the best who is my best friend has a gorgeous tattoo of him on her back which I'm so envious. The thing is though that he really believed that lesbians are lesbians because they have male spirits and gay men are gay men because they have female ones- hence his thing about allowing sex changes, and that to my mind was pretty crazy of him.
    Last edited by Ratio Et Fides; 1st July 2017 at 03:42 PM.
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  8. #28
    Dadaist Dadaist is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Why the need for Guidelines? The purpose of these type of executive guidelines, as far as I know, is to facilitate the smooth operation of the law and or to give clarification where the law is ambiguous. The law is not ambiguous here - it is lawful in federally funded educational institutions to provide separate facilities - showers, locker rooms, dormitories, and sports facilities - for males and females, as long as these facilities are broadly equal (i.e. one sex is not being treated less favourably).

    The idea that e.g. certain males (transwomen) should be treated as female is entirely outside the scope of this law (and could be said to opposed to the underlying premise of this law, which would appear to be about protecting privacy). If anyone is unhappy with the current law, of lack of it, regarding transgender people and access to facilities, then get the law changed/a new law enacted. A President seeking to write a new law by "guidelines" is not right.

    Edit - having said that, I think there would be no problem with a guidelines or a request that transgender situations be treated sensitively as far as possible, and to try to reach satisfactory solutions taking into account the wishes of all concerned. That is very far from what Obama's guidelines did though.
    The guidelines seemed sensible enough to me. There were no calls for a third toilet facility, which obviously would not be practical, nor imo necessary, nor helpful due to making the student stick out like a spare thumb (awaits physiological jokes!). Actually the guidelines specifically advise against an extra toilet facility.

    As for the legal aspect of all this and your call for 'anyone (who) is unhappy with the current law' to get out there and change it. They have, a federal appeals court in Virginia recently ruled that barring a transgender boy from using the boys’ bathroom was a civil rights violation, and school officials in Chicago and Oregon have recently outlined protections for trans students. The law is quite clear, current federal civil rights protections prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. This federal law has been repeatedly challenge and still stands.

    “Rescinding the guidance does not change the rights of students under Title IX [the federal law prohibiting sex discrimination in education and activities],” Chase Strangio, a staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union, wrote on Tuesday. “Trans students are protected from discrimination by federal law and the administration can’t change that.”
    Last edited by Dadaist; 1st July 2017 at 03:39 PM.
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  9. #29
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Hindu culture is incredibly evil by European standards- for instance the practice of dedicating a girl after she has her first period to what I would see as a demon and making her a prostitute to pay for a temple, human sacrifice and the most incredible dehumanizing racism. I knew a girl who was a fluffy very liberal Anglican who went to do voluntary work in India and she returned a five point Calvinist- bringing up what they do over there to say we should do similar is a very bad idea. I'm actually a big fan Ruhollah Khomeini, in fact the best who is my best friend has a gorgeous tattoo of him on her back which I'm so envious. The thing is though that he really believed that lesbians are lesbians because they have male spirits and gay men are gay men because they have female ones- hence his thing about allowing sex changes, and they mind that was pretty crazy of him.
    Every week ReF gets stranger and stranger. Each week I think we've reached peak Ratio and the following week some new despatch of nuttiness arrives.

    It is like watching a Coen Brothers film running out of budget.
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  10. #30
    Dadaist Dadaist is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    Hindu culture is incredibly evil by European standards- for instance the practice of dedicating a girl after she has her first period to what I would see as a demon and making her a prostitute to pay for a temple, human sacrifice and the most incredible dehumanizing racism. I knew a girl who was a fluffy very liberal Anglican who went to do voluntary work in India and she returned a five point Calvinist- bringing up what they do over there to say we should do similar is a very bad idea. I'm actually a big fan Ruhollah Khomeini, in fact the best who is my best friend has a gorgeous tattoo of him on her back which I'm so envious. The thing is though that he really believed that lesbians are lesbians because they have male spirits and gay men are gay men because they have female ones- hence his thing about allowing sex changes, and they mind that was pretty crazy of him.
    Interesting, but what has any of this got to do with any of the historical events I was highlighting?

    Also, I didn't 'bring(ing) up what they do over there to say we should do similar is a very bad idea.'
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