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  1. #151
    Mitsui2 Mitsui2 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense 0f Wonder View Post
    Would it not be cheaper to have an electronic book deleting ceremony instead?


    Brill scenario for something, Sense! Copyright it NOW, before some bugger steals it!

    But I think you miss the point of bookburnings: they're not about the expense or effectiveness, they're about the theatrics.
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  2. #152
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    On the face of it that seems fair enough. I don't see why we need these thought experiments when Pastor Jones has given us a real world example to discuss.
    Because I want to give you another experiment which will hopefully give you the strong intuition that merely being responsible for something that was reasonably foreseeable and avoidable does not always mean that one should be held responsible for the consequences that result. The differences between the two cases will show (I hope) why Jones is not necessarily morally responsible for violence that his actions may lead to. The other thought experiment is this:

    Case A: Alice is about to be raped. Her rapist informs her that if she struggles, she won't be physically harmed, but if she does struggle, he will break both her arms. Alice does not believe that struggling will be effective, but she fights back anyway. The rapist breaks both of her arms. Alice's medical bills come to $1,000.

    Case B: As before, Betty is driving slowly and carefully when out of nowhere a moose jumps in front of her car, causing her to crash and break both her arms. Her medical bills also run to $1,000.

    Your position seems to give us the implausible conclusion that Alice is less deserving of having her medical expenses covered than Betty. (Maybe Betty is equally deserving of the money, but it seems counterintuitive to me to suggest that she must be more deserving, merely because Alice could have avoided having her arms broken provided that she had not fought back).

    In order to give us what I think is the right answer in the case of Alice and Betty, I think we need to introduce a new principle which holds that Alice is absolved of responsibility because the rapist caused her disadvantage via a straightforward rights violation. If we apply that to Jones' case, however, it seems to suggest that we should place all of the responsibility firmly on the shoulders of those who react violently to the burning of the Korans.
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  3. #153
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    We are. But we are discussing freedom of speech, the original point I made is that shouldn't be allowed to burn the books because he is not engaging in a free exchange of ideas, he is trying to incite violence. We are discussing intention.
    If I perform action X that leads to effects A, B and C each of which is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of my action, does it follow that I intended A, B, and C when I performed the action?
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  4. #154
    Nemesiscorporation Nemesiscorporation is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telemachus View Post
    Mulberry residents oppose anti-Islam demonstration | wtsp.com
    Mulberry, Fla., residents fight Terry Jones' plan to burn 2,998 Korans in their town on Sept. 11 - NY Daily News

    Under the freedoms America possesses and we dont, Pastor Terry Jones will burn 2,998 Korans this 9/11. He has been doing this on the anniversary of 9/11 since 2010. Besides burning Korans Terry has hanged an effigy of Barack Obama and also on another occasion hanged another effigy of Barack Obama which was burned along with an effigy of Bill Clinton in January 2013. I believe he is doing this particular event to demonstrate the violent reactions of supporters of Islam compared to say the reactions of Christians to events like the piss christ exhibition.





    Jones of course was banned from entering the UK in 2011 by the Islam friendly government there who were terrified that the members of the religion of peace might violently riot or kill people.

    With the Blasphemy laws in Ireland it would be difficult to do this and not be arrested here. Has any political party offered to change the law in Ireland? Would Terry be welcome here?

    Leaving aside the fact I think this guy is a complete and utter twat I do support his right to burn religious books, as long as none of them are of historical interest.

    Leaving that deranged act aside, if you wish to burn the Koran, please feel free to do so. Suicide in a way, is the ultimate final right. It should not be suicide, but in reality it would be due to so many religious fantics being on the loose in society.
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  5. #155
    Mitsui2 Mitsui2 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'orebel View Post
    How about Mark Coleman's "The best is yet to come"?

    Although - there may not be enough copies in circulation.
    Also pierrepoint specified used copies. If copies of Marc Coleman's book were used in a manner appropriate to its content then most of the pages will have disappeared around an S-bend in a toilet somewhere long ago. The remnants would be unlikely to provide enough fuel for a proper book burning.
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  6. #156
    ManUnited ManUnited is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Because I want to give you another experiment which will hopefully give you the strong intuition that merely being responsible for something that was reasonably foreseeable and avoidable does not always mean that one should be held responsible for the consequences that result. The differences between the two cases will show (I hope) why Jones is not necessarily morally responsible for violence that his actions may lead to. The other thought experiment is this:

    Case A: Alice is about to be raped. Her rapist informs her that if she struggles, she won't be physically harmed, but if she does struggle, he will break both her arms. Alice does not believe that struggling will be effective, but she fights back anyway. The rapist breaks both of her arms. Alice's medical bills come to $1,000.

    Case B: As before, Betty is driving slowly and carefully when out of nowhere a moose jumps in front of her car, causing her to crash and break both her arms. Her medical bills also run to $1,000.

    Your position seems to give us the implausible conclusion that Alice is less deserving of having her medical expenses covered than Betty. (Maybe Betty is equally deserving of the money, but it seems counterintuitive to me to suggest that she must be more deserving, merely because Alice could have avoided having her arms broken provided that she had not fought back).

    In order to give us what I think is the right answer in the case of Alice and Betty, I think we need to introduce a new principle which holds that Alice is absolved of responsibility because the rapist caused her disadvantage via a straightforward rights violation. If we apply that to Jones' case, however, it seems to suggest that we should place all of the responsibility firmly on the shoulders of those who react violently to the burning of the Korans.
    There is no right answer for Alice and Betty (and intentionally so on your part I think), either way we have someone losing who doesn't deserve it. It is not the same as our Pastor. If we are going to protect freedom of speech in law then we have to deal with real world situations. At the end of the day we need to come up with an answer.
    As I said to stringjack, it is an objective test. Do you think it is likely that his actions will cause violence? I would think you would say yes. If so then it is reasonable to presume that was his intention. If that is so then he cant hide behind freedom of speech and shouldn't be allowed to burn the books. He should be given a chance to defend his proposed actions, in the unlikely event that he could show that he is merely making a statement about Islam, then he can burn away.
    Last edited by ManUnited; 21st August 2013 at 02:53 AM.
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  7. #157
    ManUnited ManUnited is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesiscorporation View Post
    Leaving aside the fact I think this guy is a complete and utter twat I do support his right to burn religious books, as long as none of them are of historical interest.

    Leaving that deranged act aside, if you wish to burn the Koran, please feel free to do so. Suicide in a way, is the ultimate final right. It should not be suicide, but in reality it would be due to so many religious fantics being on the loose in society.
    Muslims believe the Koran is the word of god. They believe the book itself is sacred, every copy of it. Do you think we should respect other peoples beliefs?
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  8. #158
    gerhard dengler gerhard dengler is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    You're a police officer who is called to a disturbance on a local bus, where several passengers have become angry because a woman has refused to sit where she is supposed to. You judge that the woman ought to have known that her actions would cause a disturbance, so you end up arresting Rosa Parks.
    No.

    As an officer of the law you apply the law as required. If a law has been broken then you arrest the person (s) who violated the law.
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  9. #159
    stringjack stringjack is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    Do you think it is likely that his actions will cause violence? I would think you would say yes. If so then it is reasonable to presume that was his intention. If that is so then he cant hide behind freedom of speech and shouldn't be allowed to burn the books. He should be given a chance to defend his proposed actions, in the unlikely event that he could show that he is merely making a statement about Islam, the he can burn away.
    This is confused. Why do you think you can't be morally responsible for actions which you don't intend?
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  10. #160
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    There is no right answer for Alice and Betty (and intentionally so on your part I think), either way we have someone losing who doesn't deserve it. It is not the same as our Pastor.
    Why is it not comparable to the pastor case? Why were we able to say in the first experiment that Betty deserved the money more than Albert, but in the second experiment we don't think Betty deserves it more than Alice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    Do you think it is likely that his actions will cause violence? I would think you would say yes.
    Yes, but Alice's actions are also likely to cause violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManUnited View Post
    If so then it is reasonable to presume that was his intention.
    This doesn't look right. Look what happens when we apply that principle to Alice's case: Alice's actions would likely cause violence (if she struggles, it is likely that her arms will be broken). If so, then it is reasonable to presume that was Alice's intention. < This seems weird.
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