Why is there no Left Wing Tea Party? Fukuyama

[Panopticon]

There is a significant difference between being a populist broadcaster who likes to talk vaguely about society being fair, and being "far left" wing.

"Far left" = Communism
"Far left" = Socialism
"Far left" = Marxist-leninism

"Far left" = Revolution of the proletariat and eventual dissolution of the nation state.


I'm sorry folks, but wanting a ten percent increase in your wages is most certainly not left wing politics, neither is smoking dope, neither is listening to Crosby, Stills and Nash, neither is cashing a cheque every month from TV3.

But you didn't say "far left", you said "left wing". There is a difference.

[Panopticon]

Absolutely. But they do behave in a politically quantifiable way. They have tendencies, economically and politically, which can be observed and measured and compared with times in the past. People display an ideological bias whether they are aware of it or not. The fact that this is at odds with how they describe themselves or pretend to think about specific issues is beside the point.

How meaningful is the concept you call "pretend to think"?

If a person wants to preserve a hospital in their county, in what sense do you believe they are only pretending to do so?

[sauntersplash]

How meaningful is the concept you call "pretend to think"?

If a person wants to preserve a hospital in their county, in what sense do you believe they are only pretending to do so?

Nobody is going to publicly advocate the closing of hospitals. Nobody is going to comment to their neighbour that it is a good thing that a hospital has been closed. But people commonly support political strategies which make cutbacks in public healthcare inevitable.

[sauntersplash]

But you didn't say "far left", you said "left wing". There is a difference.

No, irish_bob did. I was quoting him/her.

[Panopticon]

Nobody is going to publicly advocate the closing of hospitals. Nobody is going to comment to their neighbour that it is a good thing that a hospital has been closed. But people commonly support political strategies which make cutbacks in public healthcare inevitable.

Not inevitable. Even if you want your tax cut, you could always want the government to tax high incomes at 48%, or consumption at 25%, or capital gains tax at 40%, or some other option that has other problems. Indeed, some of this is the Sinn Féin policy set.

Also, not everyone has the knowledge or logical ability to justify this conclusion. "Surely a hospital can't be that expensive. We spend most of our tax money on foreign aid and single mothers' allowances, so how can hospitals be expensive?"

No, irish_bob did. I was quoting him/her.

I miss red.

[Spanner Island]

did he miss the whole "Occupy Wallstreet" movement?

Of course, left wing groups are less likely to get unlimited funding from oil billionaires, unlike the tea party.

In your dreams.

Occupy Wall Street has little to do with right vs left politics and is more to do with opposition to the 1% who control vast swathes of wealth - which is an issue far from unique to lefties. There's plenty of free market capitalist supporters who oppose the inequality of the 1% vs 99% shambles we've got now.

Americans are predominantly right wing though, and you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

I'll bet if you asked all the Occupy Wall Street protesters what they thought of socialism and lefties the majority would be be quick enough to politely tell you where you could shove it.

Even the Democrats would be considered pretty far right if they existed in Europe.

[irish_bob]

Vincent Browne regularly complains about the lack of "equality" in Ireland, and a lack of attention paid to "inequality" by the media.

replace the word regulary with constantly

[irish_bob]

In your dreams.

Occupy Wall Street has little to do with right vs left politics and is more to do with opposition to the 1% who control vast swathes of wealth - which is an issue far from unique to lefties. There's plenty of free market capitalist supporters who oppose the inequality of the 1% vs 99% shambles we've got now.

Americans are predominantly right wing though, and you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

I'll bet if you asked all the Occupy Wall Street protesters what they thought of socialism and lefties the majority would be be quick enough to politely tell you where you could shove it.

Even the Democrats would be considered pretty far right if they existed in Europe.

the democrats would be to the right of fine gael in ireland

[IvoShandor]

Americans are predominantly right wing though, and you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

Yes, this is the problem (or not depending on your point of view). The American psyche for historical reasons tilts in a rightward direction (although not necessarily always the same way as the Europoean right). The USA never went through the left-right splits that European countries did and the frontier experience and the type of Government it bequeathed to the country left a lasting mark on the National psychology. The American discourse makes much of concepts like personal freedom,independence,individualism, self-reliance...things that don't have a huge amoiunt of traction in Europe any more and whereas Europe became more interested in communal values,the alleviation of poverty,equality, solidarity..these things don't resonate with Americans in the same way.
So people like the Occupy movement (and other broadly "left" movements in the USA) struggle to find a handle to articulate to the Amertican people their sense of dissatisfaction in terms that are meaningful to them. Ideas of fairness and equality just don't click with Americans-indeed many find them faintly suspicious and left-wing.

Not to mention that identity politics has shattered the working and middle classes into racial, sexual and gender fragments. There's so many groups built around a single ideology that it's very difficult to forge an alliance.

Indeed. Left-wing movements have often seemed to ignore the broader picture to concentrate on minorities and on cultural issues. In contrast in a more socially conservative society like the USA, the Right was able to turn this concentration on social issues to its advantage, being able to paint the liberal/left as being uninterested in the concerns of ordinary people. They were also more adept at unscrupulously whipping up spurious concerns over non-issues (the "culture wars") at distracting people and deflecting the anger of the more disadvantaged onto targets like the Government, secularists, abortion,emigrants,gays,environmentalists...and so forth.
And I also think-though this is purely speculation-that the Calvinistic ethos that was so strong in the early years of America may still have an influence, if only at an unsconscious level. So, if you are poor, it is your fault.

[Panopticon]

Yes, this is the problem (or not depending on your point of view). The American psyche for historical reasons tilts in a rightward direction (although not necessarily always the same way as the Europoean right). The USA never went through the left-right splits that European countries did and the frontier experience and the type of Government it bequeathed to the country left a lasting mark on the National psychology. The American discourse makes much of concepts like personal freedom,independence,self-reliance...things that don't have a huge amoiunt of traction in Europe any more and whereas Europe became more interested in communal values,the alleviation of poverty,equality, solidarity..these things don't resonate with Americans in the same way.
So people like the Occupy movement (and other broadly "left" movements in the USA) struggle to find a handle to articulate to the Amertican people their sense of dissatisfaction in terms that are meaningful to them. Ideas of fairness and equality just don't click with Americans-indeed many find them faintly suspicious and left-wing.

Ethnic competition among urban-dwellers and plentiful land for rural-dwellers. The working-class organisations in the USA were about competing with other ethnic groups, rather than lobbying for socialist redistribution from rich people. (We were very good at ethnic competition in the USA, actually.)