Originally Posted by SC900

You can never say that no fan got in without a ticket, you can't say there where no fans who had been drinking. However - and this is getting tiresome - these factors did not contribute to the disaster.

It seems that people like silvio are taking the position that if one person didn't have a ticket or was drunk then that justifies the belief that Liverpool fans were culpable for the deaths of others. Using this logic we can say that if any forest fans were drunk at the game/caused trouble then they also contributed to the disaster by tying up police manpower which could have been used to help fans. Both positions are luducrilous.

I will repeat what I said earlier, the numbers estimated to have gone into leppings lane by the HSE was 24 over the recommended capacity, this shoots down the hundreds of ticketless fans lie.

If you buy a ticket for an event its up to the venue to take care of health and safety, its up to the venue and Police to steward the fans.

The fact is 10 years early the stand was deemed unsafe and had the potential for a crush, the council ignored the warnings.

The club wanted to pack as many in for revenue and the Police were incompetent and lied to cover their mistakes.

The Police should have stopped fans entering the stand when they saw it was getting dangerously overcrowded. They should have been aware how over crowded it was getting.



Thats the bottom line.

Originally Posted by Silvio Dante

Good lad. Now, are you also accepting that fans, for whatever reason, were in a crush situation outside the ground and forcing gates to be opened..?

The Liverpool Fans did not force the gates, that has proven to have been a lie spread by the police. Christ even the Taylor report acknowledged that it was a police decision to open the gates.

Your attempts to smear the reputations of the 96 dead is beneath contempt.

Though, noting your avatar, beneath contempt is a place you are well used to

Originally Posted by Silvio Dante

Good lad. Now, are you also accepting that fans, for whatever reason, were in a crush situation outside the ground and forcing gates to be opened..?

Yes. What is your point?

There was also a crush in pens 2 and 3.

Thats how crushes happen. People crushing each other.

In this case, 96 people dies from the crush.

Edit: Liverpool fans did not force the gates opened, if thats what your implying.

Originally Posted by cozzy121

The Liverpool Fans did not force the gates, that has proven to have been a lie spread by the police. Christ even the Taylor report acknowledged that it was a police decision to open the gates.

Your attempts to smear the reputations of the 96 dead is beneath contempt.

They had to open the gate because they inadequately policed the turnstiles. The crush and crowding began ar approx 2.30pm. People were told on their tickets to be there between 15-30 mins before kick-off as is standard.
They were, but the crowd management and policing was inadequate, culminating in the gate being opened (by the cops) and the fans being funnelled down the one tunnel into pens 2 and 3, where they were crushed, and crushed others.

Had the turnstiles been policed effectively (i.e. to a bog standard level), and pens 1-4 evenly and properly populated, we would never have had this.

Thats really it. Any deviation from the above facts, as laid out in the report yesterday, and repeated by the British Govt, is ignorance and/or idiocy.

Originally Posted by Polaris555

If you buy a ticket for an event its up to the venue to take care of health and safety, its up to the venue and Police to steward the fans.

The fact is 10 years early the stand was deemed unsafe and had the potential for a crush, the council ignored the warnings.

The club wanted to pack as many in for revenue and the Police were incompetent and lied to cover their mistakes.

The Police should have stopped fans entering the stand when they saw it was getting dangerously overcrowded. They should have been aware how over crowded it was getting.



Thats the bottom line.

The crowd cannot police itself at any event, be it a match, or a gig.

You mind yourself. You can't control 10k people around you.

Thats why god invented stewards and cops.

Originally Posted by james toney

Thatchers government interference, or lack of it,while knowing of systematic failings and deceit within the South Yorkshire Police,regarding the Taylor report's criticism of the force.

Your opening paragraph bears absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE to the content of the article to which you have provided a link, you obviously don't realise that however. You also seem more than confused when you say that:

Thatchers government interference, or lack of it,

Well which is it? Are you complaining that they interfered or that they didn't? If your going to complain about something it's a help to your readers if at least YOU know what it is?

BBC News - Hillsborough papers: Thatcher's concern about police criticism by Taylor[/QUOTE]

And? Is there a point that you're struggling, like a constipated hippo, to make? Have you actually even read this piece?, because I seriously doubt it, maybe you should do so, a few times and without your "hate Maggie" goggles on, but with a dose of calm, rational, objectivity eh?
Once again though, let me remind you that this latest report found nothing to criticise in the Government's actions in relation to the disaster. Repeat those last 12 words to yourself a few dozen times, it might start to sink in after a while.

Originally Posted by sgtharper

And? Is there a point that you're struggling, like a constipated hippo, to make? Have you actually even read this piece?, because I seriously doubt it, maybe you should do so, a few times and without your "hate Maggie" goggles on, but with a dose of calm rational, objectivity eh? Once again though, let me remind you that this latest report found nothing to criticise in the Government's actions in relation to the disaster. Repeat those last 12 words to yourself a few dozen times, it might start to sink in after a while.

You seem to be the ultimate ************************in dimwit,dont worry Thatcher is not sh!tting her herself because of this report,she has been doing that naturally for the last few years.
Go and Have you your daily w@nks over her picture first,might help you focus more.

Tell me this,what steps did she and her government take to expose the utterley corrupt Police force who tried to cover up Hillsborough?
And why did she not give her backing to criticisms of those corrupt officers,in the SYP?

"The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation."

The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions.

But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.

She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Originally Posted by james toney

You seem to be the ultimate ************************in dimwit,dont worry Thatcher is not sh!tting her herself because of this report,she has been doing that naturally for the last few years.
Go and Have you your daily w@nks over her picture first,might help you focus more.

I obviously touched a raw nerve. Do you really expect anyone to take you even remotely seriously after this kind of vile, revolting and intemperate, ranting?

Tell me this,what steps did she and her government take to expose the utterley corrupt Police force who tried to cover up Hillsborough?
And why did she not give her backing to criticisms of those corrupt officers,in the SYP?

"The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation."

The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions.

But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.

She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Yes, I know, and once again I have to remind you that the latest report, which is otherewise giving you enormous joy and satisfaction, has found nothing to criticise in the actions of the Government of the day. How many times do you need to have this one simple fact spelled out to you ?

What you are exercising here is hindsight, and a pretty selective one at that. A British Government, indeed any government, does not and cannot lightly condemn one of the country's Police forces and it certainly cannot find itself welcoming "devastating criticism" of it? I would have thought that was obvious and it is clearly the thinking behind her comment that instead, "the Government should welcome the thoroughness of report and it's recommendations".

Bless you, you do seem to live in a very simple and uncomplicated world, don't you? One which makes irrational hatreds and leaps to judgement so very easy in fact.

Sadly lessons have not been learned from Hillsborough. A simple google search of "bunking in" will give you a tsunami of links to up to date reports of fans getting into stadia without a ticket mainly via fake tickets. Near misses were reported for the champions league final in 2007 where police had to turn back liverpool supporters with genuine tickets as thousands had got in with fake tickets. Another report mentioned the chamions league semifinal in 2005 where some liverpool fans charged the turnstiles. Other examples were blogs of people who found a trespasser in their seat when they arrived. There is also a video of Liverpool fans risking life and limb climbing up the side of wembley stadium in 1986 to be pulled into windows by fans inside.

I am a lifelong Liverpool supporter btw.

Originally Posted by SilverSpurs

Sadly lessons have not been learned from Hillsborough. A simple google search of "bunking in" will give you a tsunami of links to up to date reports of fans getting into stadia without a ticket mainly via fake tickets. Near misses were reported for the champions league final in 2007 where police had to turn back liverpool supporters with genuine tickets as thousands had got in with fake tickets. Another report mentioned the chamions league semifinal in 2005 where some liverpool fans charged the turnstiles. Other examples were blogs of people who found a trespasser in their seat when they arrived. There is also a video of Liverpool fans risking life and limb climbing up the side of wembley stadium in 1986 to be pulled into windows by fans inside.

I am a lifelong Liverpool supporter btw.

Firstly, bunking in as you call it hasnt been found to be a reason for the Hillsborough disaster, so I am a bit confused about why you are linking this as a lesson that hasnt been learned?

2007 was a joke alright (I was talking to my family about it only last night) and a very dangerous one. Never heard anything before about 2005 - and I was at both of these games.

I suggest you try ticketless fans if searching google: this includes the story that 1000s of Dubai cricket fans tried to get into a cricket game, ticketless fans try to take the Ice Palace by storm. I can't find any mention of 2005 semi final issues so you can send me on a link.