Tim Collins' evidence ripped apart

[toxic avenger]

[quote=tonys]

The question of whether transactions 54 and 55 occurred in either sequence is irrelevant, they both occurred simultaneously. Almost certainly there was a sterling conversion followed by a lodgment. Or is this yet another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? How much bullsh1t are we expected to listen to?...

That being the case, off you go to any bank and ask them will they let you lodge Euro to your account before you have any Euro to lodge. I have a feeling I already know the answer you’ll get, but just to satisfy yourself, give it a try.

The transaction almost certainly took place in the order conversion first, lodgment after. It being registered the other way round only means they were done simultaneously and registered just afterwards. Seriously, you believe the two events are entirely independent and coincidental, another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? Of course you don't...

Isn’t it a little odd that any of the details that don’t fit with your preordained outcome, somehow don’t matter, but anything that does fit, even if it has to be pushed into place is heralded by you as proof positive.
As you now admit that the sequence was NOT as you claimed it was, you should look at your other “facts“.

Collins NEVER said that they held a constituency golf classic in ‘92 or at any other time, he didn’t lie and you should withdraw that claim.

There is NO D/T account as you said there was, no account of that name ever existed, you should also withdraw that claim.[/quote:32i9a7x4]

The sequence does not matter. They quite clearly happened simultaneously, unless you want us to believe that Collins happened to be standing in a queue in front of another person who also happened to be carrying £20K, albeit in Sterling at parity. Really, how stupid do you think we all are??????

Your other points I have addressed ad nauseam, mere semantics and you well know it. Was that account referred to as the D/T account? Yes it clearly was. And was the mythical golf classic not meant to be a constituency one? Of course it was, why was it lodged to an alleged constituency account otherwise? He was caught on a lie, and you are engaging in the most disingenuous and desperate pettifogging in order to try and cover it.

[tonys]

[quote=droghedasouth][quote=tonys]

First transaction is to convert the stg into punts probably through an impersonal account, amount needs to be in the currency in which account is held hence the second transaction to credit IR£ account, all in all pretty straight forward but as ever a compulsion to create a .001% doubt, therefore not proven means Bertie/Tim innocent.

Unfortunately for your side of the fence the first transaction was the lodgement of 20,000 IR followed by a transaction exchanging 20,000 Stg into IR, so, all in all not very straight forward if as is being suggested that the Stg was exchanged and then lodged as IR. But as DS says why bother with details, particularly if they’re inconvenient details.
You're gas men and no mistake.

Tonys - please show me the quote or apologise.

TA claims that Collins said something he NEVER said
TA claims an exchange & lodgement sequence which is exactly the opposite to what actually happened
TA claims there is an account named D/T and tries to make it an exact equivalent to the B/T account. NO D/T account exists, therefore obviously there is no equivalence to the B/T account.

You say
“Who do you think you are fooling by nit-picking TA's post? “

If that’s nit picking, I’d hate to meet the fleas in your neck of the woods.

You should be an expert on fleas; if you lie with dogs, you can expect to pick up fleas.

If you are going to quote me then, give the rest of the quote, unless of course you dont care about details.

You poor sad man.
Who do you think you are fooling by nit-picking TA's post?
The conclusions based on Tim Collins' evidence are clear.

Out of Tim Collin's own evidence, he explains that D/T = Des and Tim.
Surely B/T = Bertie and Tim.

IRP 20,000 and GBP 20,000 as sequential transactions - the currencies were on parity at the time so it is not relevant which one was done first.

Golf classics - quite possible that Fianna Fagans the Kleptoptican Party had started golf classics before FF the Republican Party. The evidence that one IRP 19,000 lodgement consisting of a cheque for IRP 20,000 being lodged but IRP 1,000 being taken in cash is interesting. As Des O'Neill so nicely reminds Tim, there should be a mixture of cash and cheques from the various participants. So lets just drop the nonsense that this was a Fianna Fagans or golf classic.

Now please be a man and withdraw your slur.

Not a chance.
BTW how do Angels do in the flea stakes?, ………sorry for asking, you wouldn’t know would you.
I’ll go and ask John.[/quote:1f3lees1]
John Bruton is at least man enough to answer for his own actions.[/quote:1f3lees1]While I’m sure that’s true it was only at the third time of the tribunals asking that he showed his quality.

You have just shown that you are unrepentant about misrepresenting me and will in future be treated as the miserable flea-ridden cur you have shown yourself to be.

I don’t think I misrepresented you at all, I think I got your sentiment spot on. If you don’t like being seen to defend a ridiculous set of claims, then don’t do it.

[droghedasouth]

[quote=tonys]

The question of whether transactions 54 and 55 occurred in either sequence is irrelevant, they both occurred simultaneously. Almost certainly there was a sterling conversion followed by a lodgment. Or is this yet another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? How much bullsh1t are we expected to listen to?...

That being the case, off you go to any bank and ask them will they let you lodge Euro to your account before you have any Euro to lodge. I have a feeling I already know the answer you’ll get, but just to satisfy yourself, give it a try.

The transaction almost certainly took place in the order conversion first, lodgment after. It being registered the other way round only means they were done simultaneously and registered just afterwards. Seriously, you believe the two events are entirely independent and coincidental, another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? Of course you don't...

Isn’t it a little odd that any of the details that don’t fit with your preordained outcome, somehow don’t matter, but anything that does fit, even if it has to be pushed into place is heralded by you as proof positive.
As you now admit that the sequence was NOT as you claimed it was, you should look at your other “facts“.

Collins NEVER said that they held a constituency golf classic in ‘92 or at any other time, he didn’t lie and you should withdraw that claim.

There is NO D/T account as you said there was, no account of that name ever existed, you should also withdraw that claim.[/quote:3if988if]

Just stop digging unless of course you intend burying the excrement that has hit the fan in ever increasing volumes.

So when Tim says that St. Luke's should have the details of the golf classic, does he mean
St. Luke's the HQ of Dublin Central Fianna Fail the Republican Party organisation
or
St. Luke's the den of thieves for Fianna Fagans the Kleptolican Party?

How do you explain the 46 withdrawl slips on the account where D/T is given as the account name?

[toxic avenger]

I still haven't got an answer to my earlier question. Since when do 'golf classics' result in nice large round-figure sums of £20K and £10K? Is there a single other instance that can be provided of a golf classic producing these tidy little figures? Other than when the money is going into an account that looks extraordinarily like a slush fund?...

[droghedasouth]

[quote=tonys][quote=droghedasouth][quote=tonys]

First transaction is to convert the stg into punts probably through an impersonal account, amount needs to be in the currency in which account is held hence the second transaction to credit IR£ account, all in all pretty straight forward but as ever a compulsion to create a .001% doubt, therefore not proven means Bertie/Tim innocent.

Unfortunately for your side of the fence the first transaction was the lodgement of 20,000 IR followed by a transaction exchanging 20,000 Stg into IR, so, all in all not very straight forward if as is being suggested that the Stg was exchanged and then lodged as IR. But as DS says why bother with details, particularly if they’re inconvenient details.
You're gas men and no mistake.

Tonys - please show me the quote or apologise.

TA claims that Collins said something he NEVER said
TA claims an exchange & lodgement sequence which is exactly the opposite to what actually happened
TA claims there is an account named D/T and tries to make it an exact equivalent to the B/T account. NO D/T account exists, therefore obviously there is no equivalence to the B/T account.

You say
“Who do you think you are fooling by nit-picking TA's post? “

If that’s nit picking, I’d hate to meet the fleas in your neck of the woods.

You should be an expert on fleas; if you lie with dogs, you can expect to pick up fleas.

If you are going to quote me then, give the rest of the quote, unless of course you dont care about details.

You poor sad man.
Who do you think you are fooling by nit-picking TA's post?
The conclusions based on Tim Collins' evidence are clear.

Out of Tim Collin's own evidence, he explains that D/T = Des and Tim.
Surely B/T = Bertie and Tim.

IRP 20,000 and GBP 20,000 as sequential transactions - the currencies were on parity at the time so it is not relevant which one was done first.

Golf classics - quite possible that Fianna Fagans the Kleptoptican Party had started golf classics before FF the Republican Party. The evidence that one IRP 19,000 lodgement consisting of a cheque for IRP 20,000 being lodged but IRP 1,000 being taken in cash is interesting. As Des O'Neill so nicely reminds Tim, there should be a mixture of cash and cheques from the various participants. So lets just drop the nonsense that this was a Fianna Fagans or golf classic.

Now please be a man and withdraw your slur.

Not a chance.
BTW how do Angels do in the flea stakes?, ………sorry for asking, you wouldn’t know would you.
I’ll go and ask John.[/quote:3u4p87jn]
John Bruton is at least man enough to answer for his own actions.[/quote:3u4p87jn]While I’m sure that’s true it was only at the third time of the tribunals asking that he showed his quality.

You have just shown that you are unrepentant about misrepresenting me and will in future be treated as the miserable flea-ridden cur you have shown yourself to be.

I don’t think I misrepresented you at all, I think I got your sentiment spot on. If you don’t like being seen to defend a ridiculous set of claims, then don’t do it.[/quote:3u4p87jn]

Well I have lost count of the number of times I have asked you to withdraw your claim, so even if your claim about JB is correct, you are a miserable apologist for corruption.

You nit-picked the details of TA's statements which were not as carefully written as mine to distract from the fact that he is broadly speaking correct.

I notice you make no effort to deny my re-write of the conclusions.

Come on, be a man and apologise.
It is after all Holy week and a little bit of sackcloth and ashes might be appropriate.

[toxic avenger]

The only error was in the order of transaction given, not in my first post, which is irrelevant, as tonys well knows. Unless he seriously claims that there was some other bloke in the queue directly behind Collins who happened to have £20K stg, at parity, at the exact same time in the same branch. Everything I have posted is absolutely spot on.

Collins' claims were torn apart, and Ahern is exposed on yet another front.

[tonys]

[quote=toxic avenger][quote=tonys]

The question of whether transactions 54 and 55 occurred in either sequence is irrelevant, they both occurred simultaneously. Almost certainly there was a sterling conversion followed by a lodgment. Or is this yet another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? How much bullsh1t are we expected to listen to?...

That being the case, off you go to any bank and ask them will they let you lodge Euro to your account before you have any Euro to lodge. I have a feeling I already know the answer you’ll get, but just to satisfy yourself, give it a try.

The transaction almost certainly took place in the order conversion first, lodgment after. It being registered the other way round only means they were done simultaneously and registered just afterwards. Seriously, you believe the two events are entirely independent and coincidental, another unfortunate foreign currency coincidence? Of course you don't...

Isn’t it a little odd that any of the details that don’t fit with your preordained outcome, somehow don’t matter, but anything that does fit, even if it has to be pushed into place is heralded by you as proof positive.
As you now admit that the sequence was NOT as you claimed it was, you should look at your other “facts“.

Collins NEVER said that they held a constituency golf classic in ‘92 or at any other time, he didn’t lie and you should withdraw that claim.

There is NO D/T account as you said there was, no account of that name ever existed, you should also withdraw that claim.[/quote:1q765byj]

The sequence does not matter. They quite clearly happened simultaneously, unless you want us to believe that Collins happened to be standing in a queue in front of another person who also happened to be carrying £20K, albeit in Sterling at parity. Really, how stupid do you think we all are??????

Your other points I have addressed ad nauseam, mere semantics and you well know it. Was that account referred to as the D/T account? Yes it clearly was. And was the mythical golf classic not meant to be a constituency one? Of course it was, why was it lodged to an alleged constituency account otherwise? He was caught on a lie, and you are engaging in the most disingenuous and desperate pettifogging in order to try and cover it.[/quote:1q765byj]The sequence matters, believe me the sequences matters. If it were the other way around, that is to say the way you claimed it to be, the tribunal would have made a lot more of it (just like you tried to) than they in fact did.

It seem to me, purely on the basis of the sequence, much more likely that whoever made the lodgement also had 20,000 sterling to exchange for their own reasons, which they did and put in their arse pocket.

The account was referred to only in shorthand as D/T on less than one third of all dockets associated with the account, on the rest it was referred to by the actual name of the account, the Des Richardson & Tim Collins account.

The golf classic was a cumman run event not a constituency run event, leaving the constituency free to run an inaugural event whenever they got around to it.
The money was lodged to a constituency account to look after the constituency office building. (before asking that question you really need to make up your mind if it was a slush account or a constituency account)

[adrem]

Is Fish's comment not a bit non-PC?? Is there such a thing as political incorrectness on a political discussion forum? Not sure.. (I'm referring to the retarded comment btw).

Anyway - I think Tonys is simply pointing out that the account name - the one in the branch and on the permo system - on one account actually was B/T account where as what the lads are referring to as the D/T account didn't actually have that as the account name - it was actually named the Tim Collins and Des Richardson account in the permo, on their systems etc.

some of the arguments made up above are valid - some are a bit daft - using them you could BIM having to stand for British India Media rather than Bord Iascaigh Mhara (well the B in BT stands for British Telecom so that means it must .....)

Your first point, where do you think you are man, Boards.ie?!!!

The second one is a tad disingenuous. You are after all dealing with two accounts set up by the same person, with the same initial characterisation. British India Media and Bord Iascaigh Mhara haven't both been involved in joint accounts carrying spurious lodgments with the same third party. Not to my knowledge, anyway...

Boards?? wouldn't lower myself !!!

'course I was . . . although those curry seafood recipes? you never know!!

btw Fish - calm down and stop telling posters to screw themselves - generally one should at least try to operate with some level of decorum - even if that just means being a bit more polite when disagreeing with other posters

[tonys]

The only error was in the order of transaction given, not in my first post, which is irrelevant, as tonys well knows. Unless he seriously claims that there was some other bloke in the queue directly behind Collins who happened to have £20K stg, at parity, at the exact same time in the same branch. Everything I have posted is absolutely spot on.

Collins' claims were torn apart, and Ahern is exposed on yet another front.

That’s absolute nonsense, you have been shown to be wrong on all three points you made. If you can’t see that there’s no point in going any further with it.

[constitutionus]

you know theres one little detail in the B/T account people havent mentioned yet

LEAGALLY for most of its existance, i.e since before tim ended up in hospital,he was the sole signaturey of the account and it was defined as tim collins money ONLY in the eyes of the bank and the law . that means if he hadve kicked the bucket the money wouldve went to his family. NOT FF.

kinda blows a hole in the "its FFs money for doing the building up" story.

oh and as someone in financial services it is VERY easy to say the punt lodgement was from funds done in a foreign exchange transaction right after it. i do it all the time with cash. i.e if im selling dollars to someone and theyre paying by cheque we can sell the dollars and buy the cheque. or we can buy the cheque and sell the dollars . but the IMPORTANT thing is BOTH tranactions have to be done sequentially so you can explain it to the auditors, and the figures have to match exactly or you can be done for fraud. thats exactly whats happend here. whoda thought at this stage we'd find a financial instituion that actually has records !

IMO the 20k lodged was the 20k stg exchanged. but playing devils advocate , if its not, what happend to the 20k? after all collins maintained the 20k he lodged was the money given to burke two months previous, so theres an extra 20k punt floating around there somewhere.