Tim Collins' evidence ripped apart

[code twinkle]

there before me TA and far more succinct!

[adrem]

I haven't had a chance to look at much of the recent goings on - was away.

but

is it getting down to the fact that the tribunal seems to be uncovering evidence that would indicate that BA was keeping FF monies for himself as distinct from evidence that would suggest BA received bribes from OOC as part of the development of Liffey Valley?

No, it's coming down to the fact that these were NEVER FF monies.

Not getting this. So the argument is that they were bribes is it? Why would he lodge bribes? Why would he lodge them to all the myriad accounts?

And no - the answer that it would prevent the tribunal finding them makes no sense because firstly he had no idea that the tribunal would be looking and secondly if he had a fear that the paper trail could be tracked surely the easy answer was keep it in cash.

[tonys]

1. Semantics. Wriggling after being caught.
2. Transaction 54 that day was the exchange. Transaction 55 was the lodgment.
3. There is a D/T account. It was opened in 1991.

1. So denying he ever said something which he didn’t say is semantics?
2. You’ve got the transaction numbers the wrong way around.
3. You’re wrong, read the transcript. The name on the account was the Tim Collins & Des Richardson account, not D/T.

[markeys]

Truth has no price. Absolutely. If this tribunal has to run for another 10 years then so be it. Its nobody but Aherns fault that we even need this tribunal. If only he hadn't taken all those cash payments....

[theyshootPDsdontthey]

I haven't had a chance to look at much of the recent goings on - was away.

but

is it getting down to the fact that the tribunal seems to be uncovering evidence that would indicate that BA was keeping FF monies for himself as distinct from evidence that would suggest BA received bribes from OOC as part of the development of Liffey Valley?

No, it's coming down to the fact that these were NEVER FF monies.

Not getting this. So the argument is that they were bribes is it? Why would he lodge bribes? Why would he lodge them to all the myriad accounts?

And no - the answer that it would prevent the tribunal finding them makes no sense because firstly he had no idea that the tribunal would be looking and secondly if he had a fear that the paper trail could be tracked surely the easy answer was keep it in cash.

From the Sindo
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analy ... 18813.html

"One of the key concepts of the new age of brutal pragmatism is that you should never take responsibility for another man's problems -- and it is now dangerously clear that, when it comes to the Davy's cheque for £5,000 in 1992, the most cunning one of them all has made a decisive error.
If Mr Ahern had not lodged that cheque in the B/T account, the tribunal could never have made its current sortie into the secret constituency accounts of the People's Republic of Drumcondra.

However, his decision to do so has allowed this small cheque to become the legal equivalent of the sort of fly that is floated on a long line into a big pool of sleepy trout, who have not been disturbed for decades
Last week, however, the tribunal's rod tip wasn't just quivering. It was thrashing all round the bank, and there was a whole heap of 'em on the line.

We already knew about how £30,000 of FF money was spent on that "humanitarian" loan to Celia Larkin, where Ms Larkin, Joe Burke and the rest of the lads had to say "Shhh" every time Mr Ahern dropped into Fagans because he did not know about the loan.

However, when it comes to the €200,000 Aladdin's cave of Dublin Central, the B/T account was only one of a series of unofficial funds (and do feel free to replace unofficial with a more appropriate term) that were run for the benefit of Mr Ahern's political career.
Oddly enough, the official FF accounts in Dublin Central were constantly over-drawn, but when it came to the Continuity Bertie Ahern wing of FF's unique twin track approach to "personal donations for political purposes", these were always in the black.

In 1988, for example the Cumann O'Donovan Rossa Fund (CODR) secured £50,000 after six months.

In 1989, an election account for Mr Ahern turned in a profit of £18,000, while its 1992 equivalent was up by £28,000.

In a rare revelatory moment, a satisfied Collins noted of the latter that "I knew they had a pretty good election run".

They sure did, Tim.

Ultimately it was the BT account, which trousered more than €110,000 over its lifespan, that was the real mother lode."

In the words of Columbo "just one little thing" upset the whole "appletart".

[code twinkle]

1. Semantics. Wriggling after being caught.
2. Transaction 54 that day was the exchange. Transaction 55 was the lodgment.
3. There is a D/T account. It was opened in 1991.

1. So denying he ever said something which he didn’t say is semantics?
2. You’ve got the transaction numbers the wrong way around.
3. You’re wrong, read the transcript. The name on the account was the Tim Collins & Des Richardson account, not D/T.

Tonys the evidence is on the board. Tim Collins answered Des O'Neill on the record that "If it says a golf classic and that's what the accountants stated on their sheet, you know."

He AGREED that if the accountants stated that it was a golf classic, then it was. And the accountants did state it was. Why have you no answer for me?

[greengoose]

1. Semantics. Wriggling after being caught.
2. Transaction 54 that day was the exchange. Transaction 55 was the lodgment.
3. There is a D/T account. It was opened in 1991.

1. So denying he ever said something which he didn’t say is semantics?
2. You’ve got the transaction numbers the wrong way around.
3. You’re wrong, read the transcript. The name on the account was the Tim Collins & Des Richardson account, not D/T.

Q. 603 The account is called D/T?
A. That is written on it.
Q. 604 Yeah. Can you explain what that means, Mr. Collins?
A. Well I may not have filled that in. I signed it. The D/T obviously means Des Richardson and Tim Collins.
Q. 605 So you take the first letter of the Christian name of each of the beneficial owners of the account and you apply that with the hyphen between the two to identify the account?
A. Yeah.

[adrem]

I haven't had a chance to look at much of the recent goings on - was away.

but

is it getting down to the fact that the tribunal seems to be uncovering evidence that would indicate that BA was keeping FF monies for himself as distinct from evidence that would suggest BA received bribes from OOC as part of the development of Liffey Valley?

No, it's coming down to the fact that these were NEVER FF monies.

Not getting this. So the argument is that they were bribes is it? Why would he lodge bribes? Why would he lodge them to all the myriad accounts?

And no - the answer that it would prevent the tribunal finding them makes no sense because firstly he had no idea that the tribunal would be looking and secondly if he had a fear that the paper trail could be tracked surely the easy answer was keep it in cash.

From the Sindo
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analy ... 18813.html

"One of the key concepts of the new age of brutal pragmatism is that you should never take responsibility for another man's problems -- and it is now dangerously clear that, when it comes to the Davy's cheque for £5,000 in 1992, the most cunning one of them all has made a decisive error.
If Mr Ahern had not lodged that cheque in the B/T account, the tribunal could never have made its current sortie into the secret constituency accounts of the People's Republic of Drumcondra.

However, his decision to do so has allowed this small cheque to become the legal equivalent of the sort of fly that is floated on a long line into a big pool of sleepy trout, who have not been disturbed for decades
Last week, however, the tribunal's rod tip wasn't just quivering. It was thrashing all round the bank, and there was a whole heap of 'em on the line.

We already knew about how £30,000 of FF money was spent on that "humanitarian" loan to Celia Larkin, where Ms Larkin, Joe Burke and the rest of the lads had to say "Shhh" every time Mr Ahern dropped into Fagans because he did not know about the loan.

However, when it comes to the €200,000 Aladdin's cave of Dublin Central, the B/T account was only one of a series of unofficial funds (and do feel free to replace unofficial with a more appropriate term) that were run for the benefit of Mr Ahern's political career.
Oddly enough, the official FF accounts in Dublin Central were constantly over-drawn, but when it came to the Continuity Bertie Ahern wing of FF's unique twin track approach to "personal donations for political purposes", these were always in the black.

In 1988, for example the Cumann O'Donovan Rossa Fund (CODR) secured £50,000 after six months.

In 1989, an election account for Mr Ahern turned in a profit of £18,000, while its 1992 equivalent was up by £28,000.

In a rare revelatory moment, a satisfied Collins noted of the latter that "I knew they had a pretty good election run".

They sure did, Tim.

Ultimately it was the BT account, which trousered more than €110,000 over its lifespan, that was the real mother lode."

In the words of Columbo "just one little thing" upset the whole "appletart".

yeah - but even they have to betray their stupid childishness with the commentary re having to say "shh" everytime bertie came into Fagans because he didn't know about the loan - he has said that he did know about the loan. He knew about it as soon as the house was purchased. my point being that the SINDO know that but it suits them to pretend otherwise - how much of the rest of this is just about a tabloid journalists wet dream.

That said loads of scandals/frauds whatever have come out in the past due to minor slip ups, seemingly harmless minor and unrelated incidents all of a sudden upsetting the entire applecart - Mr Dunne having a coke experience in a hotel and how that ultimately destroyed CJH being a recent case in point. So it may well be that the Davy cheque is the link that opens up the appalling vista - still difficult to give the SINDO any credit though !!

[toxic avenger]

1. Semantics. Wriggling after being caught.
2. Transaction 54 that day was the exchange. Transaction 55 was the lodgment.
3. There is a D/T account. It was opened in 1991.

1. So denying he ever said something which he didn’t say is semantics?
2. You’ve got the transaction numbers the wrong way around.
3. You’re wrong, read the transcript. The name on the account was the Tim Collins & Des Richardson account, not D/T.

My apologies, I have transposed 54 and 55. The point stands however. The coincidence, yet another in a long line we are supposed to swallow, is that there was no connection between the two transactions, of equal value, on a day when Sterling and Punt were at parity. The sequencing in the bank transaction numbers of a lodgment followed by a conversion only means that the two transactions were carried out simultaneously, not that the two were done in that order. Or are we supposed to believe there was yet ANOTHER unfortunate foreign exchange coincidence haunting our beleaguered Lemony Ahern?..

And they referred to the account, by their own admission, as the D/T account, regardless of the official account name. More semantics.

[droghedasouth]

1. Semantics. Wriggling after being caught.
2. Transaction 54 that day was the exchange. Transaction 55 was the lodgment.
3. There is a D/T account. It was opened in 1991.

1. So denying he ever said something which he didn’t say is semantics?
2. You’ve got the transaction numbers the wrong way around.
3. You’re wrong, read the transcript. The name on the account was the Tim Collins & Des Richardson account, not D/T.

Tonys - I hope you are well paid for this stuff because not even a child of 7 would try to get away with this stuff.

1. Wrong. As quoted above he says "My view is that it would be a golf classic" in response to Q.307 .
2. You are correct about the transaction numbers, but just how many FX coincidences can you explain away. You should just be happy it wasn't dollars.
3. Again you are technically correct, but you also know from the transcripts that there are 46 out of 151 withdrawl transactions where D/T is used as the name of the account.

Not even 13 days of p.ie blackout can save you from the lies of the Drumcondra kleptocracy.