When does spin become defined as a lie?

[adrem]

There's a lot of this about at the moment whereby when being interviewed one side or the other (and they are both at it) relates the sequence of events but leaves out crucial information that they are aware of, change dates, muddle amounts etc etc so as to make their version sound plausible. When we parse the info we often find there is a minor fudge eg "to the best of my knowledge" or "as far as I know" very quietly and quickly stuck in at the beginning or end of a massive long litany or data which is presented as fact. And it's only when you parse it that you realise that the information that was presented as fact is actually just their spin on it.

I (personally) am getting fed up at this because I see it as lying rather than acceptable spinning.

Lest anyone feel I'm being unfair to FF (Bertie himself and Mansergh and others are masters of this method) I state again - they are all at it.

For example I heard Eugene Regan on this morning stating (slightly para-phasing here!) "The tribunal are carrying out it's business as they are required - they are following the money. An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Bertie Ahern received 2 payments 30k and 50k. The tribunal has found the same amoounts lodged to Bertie Aherns accounts at that time" and here's the kicker "in 94 / 95".

Of course what he doesn't say is that the allegation was that he received 50000 in 1989 whereas the 50 lodgement to BAs account didn't occur until 6 years later and the allegation regarding the 30k was that he received it between 1989 and 1992 whereas the tribunal are looking at similar payments received in 94.

I know that politicians the world over will always get involved in an element of massaging the truth to make their position look better and we all accept that (eg.s like job announcements in the run up to elections being announced 3/4 times and credit taken for them by 3/4 politicians !). I just think what we have seen in recent years is more akin to lying than spinning. And yes - it is not unique to Ireland Tony Blair, George Bush and others all do the same - that doesn't mean it's right.

[constitutionus]

approximatly one day after the person involved retires.

[Defeated Romanticist]

unfortunatly it's a prisoners dilemma. would you want your man to back down first?

[Edo]

There's a lot of this about at the moment whereby when being interviewed one side or the other (and they are both at it) relates the sequence of events but leaves out crucial information that they are aware of, change dates, muddle amounts etc etc so as to make their version sound plausible. When we parse the info we often find there is a minor fudge eg "to the best of my knowledge" or "as far as I know" very quietly and quickly stuck in at the beginning or end of a massive long litany or data which is presented as fact. And it's only when you parse it that you realise that the information that was presented as fact is actually just their spin on it.

I (personally) am getting fed up at this because I see it as lying rather than acceptable spinning.

Lest anyone feel I'm being unfair to FF (Bertie himself and Mansergh and others are masters of this method) I state again - they are all at it.

For example I heard Eugene Regan on this morning stating (slightly para-phasing here!) "The tribunal are carrying out it's business as they are required - they are following the money. An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Bertie Ahern received 2 payments 30k and 50k. The tribunal has found the same amoounts lodged to Bertie Aherns accounts at that time" and here's the kicker "in 94 / 95".

Of course what he doesn't say is that the allegation was that he received 50000 in 1989 whereas the 50 lodgement to BAs account didn't occur until 6 years later and the allegation regarding the 30k was that he received it between 1989 and 1992 whereas the tribunal are looking at similar payments received in 94.

I know that politicians the world over will always get involved in an element of massaging the truth to make their position look better and we all accept that (eg.s like job announcements in the run up to elections being announced 3/4 times and credit taken for them by 3/4 politicians !). I just think what we have seen in recent years is more akin to lying than spinning. And yes - it is not unique to Ireland Tony Blair, George Bush and others all do the same - that doesn't mean it's right.

Adrem - in all honesty - you are spinning yourself - just stand back and take a look at that first paragraph you wrote - its just what Bertie has been doing with the Tribunal for the last 18 months - this story will run and run and politicans and opinion makers have been spinning and leaving bits out and being economical with the truth etc etc etc since Eve told Adam that one little bite wouldn't hurt - get used to it

Tell me this - if Bert hadn't got himself tangled up in a financial granny knot to end all granny knots vis a vis the tribunal and his self inflicited poltical death by a thousand cuts and plunge into ridicule - would you be so concerned about the morality of political and media classes? - supposing it was Enda Kenny or Eamonn Gilmore in the same position?

[adrem]

There's a lot of this about at the moment whereby when being interviewed one side or the other (and they are both at it) relates the sequence of events but leaves out crucial information that they are aware of, change dates, muddle amounts etc etc so as to make their version sound plausible. When we parse the info we often find there is a minor fudge eg "to the best of my knowledge" or "as far as I know" very quietly and quickly stuck in at the beginning or end of a massive long litany or data which is presented as fact. And it's only when you parse it that you realise that the information that was presented as fact is actually just their spin on it.

I (personally) am getting fed up at this because I see it as lying rather than acceptable spinning.

Lest anyone feel I'm being unfair to FF (Bertie himself and Mansergh and others are masters of this method) I state again - they are all at it.

For example I heard Eugene Regan on this morning stating (slightly para-phasing here!) "The tribunal are carrying out it's business as they are required - they are following the money. An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Bertie Ahern received 2 payments 30k and 50k. The tribunal has found the same amoounts lodged to Bertie Aherns accounts at that time" and here's the kicker "in 94 / 95".

Of course what he doesn't say is that the allegation was that he received 50000 in 1989 whereas the 50 lodgement to BAs account didn't occur until 6 years later and the allegation regarding the 30k was that he received it between 1989 and 1992 whereas the tribunal are looking at similar payments received in 94.

I know that politicians the world over will always get involved in an element of massaging the truth to make their position look better and we all accept that (eg.s like job announcements in the run up to elections being announced 3/4 times and credit taken for them by 3/4 politicians !). I just think what we have seen in recent years is more akin to lying than spinning. And yes - it is not unique to Ireland Tony Blair, George Bush and others all do the same - that doesn't mean it's right.

Adrem - in all honesty - you are spinning yourself - just stand back and take a look at that first paragraph you wrote - its just what Bertie has been doing with the Tribunal for the last 18 months - this story will run and run and politicans and opinion makers have been spinning and leaving bits out and being economical with the truth etc etc etc since Eve told Adam that one little bite wouldn't hurt - get used to it

Tell me this - if Bert hadn't got himself tangled up in a financial granny knot to end all granny knots vis a vis the tribunal and his self inflicited poltical death by a thousand cuts and plunge into ridicule - would you be so concerned about the morality of political and media classes? - supposing it was Enda Kenny or Eamonn Gilmore in the same position?

Edo I don't think you are being fair (or even accurate) - I'm actually highlighting this as a FF trait (see para 3) I know and accept that they do it all the time but lest they feel I'm being picking on them or being unfair to FF I'm pointing out that all parties do it. FFS !! Read the post before you respond to it.

[Defeated Romanticist]

There's a lot of this about at the moment whereby when being interviewed one side or the other (and they are both at it) relates the sequence of events but leaves out crucial information that they are aware of, change dates, muddle amounts etc etc so as to make their version sound plausible. When we parse the info we often find there is a minor fudge eg "to the best of my knowledge" or "as far as I know" very quietly and quickly stuck in at the beginning or end of a massive long litany or data which is presented as fact. And it's only when you parse it that you realise that the information that was presented as fact is actually just their spin on it.

I (personally) am getting fed up at this because I see it as lying rather than acceptable spinning.

Lest anyone feel I'm being unfair to FF (Bertie himself and Mansergh and others are masters of this method) I state again - they are all at it.

For example I heard Eugene Regan on this morning stating (slightly para-phasing here!) "The tribunal are carrying out it's business as they are required - they are following the money. An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Bertie Ahern received 2 payments 30k and 50k. The tribunal has found the same amoounts lodged to Bertie Aherns accounts at that time" and here's the kicker "in 94 / 95".

Of course what he doesn't say is that the allegation was that he received 50000 in 1989 whereas the 50 lodgement to BAs account didn't occur until 6 years later and the allegation regarding the 30k was that he received it between 1989 and 1992 whereas the tribunal are looking at similar payments received in 94.

I know that politicians the world over will always get involved in an element of massaging the truth to make their position look better and we all accept that (eg.s like job announcements in the run up to elections being announced 3/4 times and credit taken for them by 3/4 politicians !). I just think what we have seen in recent years is more akin to lying than spinning. And yes - it is not unique to Ireland Tony Blair, George Bush and others all do the same - that doesn't mean it's right.

Adrem - in all honesty - you are spinning yourself - just stand back and take a look at that first paragraph you wrote - its just what Bertie has been doing with the Tribunal for the last 18 months - this story will run and run and politicans and opinion makers have been spinning and leaving bits out and being economical with the truth etc etc etc since Eve told Adam that one little bite wouldn't hurt - get used to it

Tell me this - if Bert hadn't got himself tangled up in a financial granny knot to end all granny knots vis a vis the tribunal and his self inflicited poltical death by a thousand cuts and plunge into ridicule - would you be so concerned about the morality of political and media classes? - supposing it was Enda Kenny or Eamonn Gilmore in the same position?

Edo I don't think you are being fair (or even accurate) - I'm actually highlighting this as a FF trait (see para 3) I know and accept that they do it all the time but lest they feel I'm being picking on them or being unfair to FF I'm pointing out that all parties do it. FFS !! Read the post before you respond to it.

No adrem you were spinning like it were 1799.

[Edo]

There's a lot of this about at the moment whereby when being interviewed one side or the other (and they are both at it) relates the sequence of events but leaves out crucial information that they are aware of, change dates, muddle amounts etc etc so as to make their version sound plausible. When we parse the info we often find there is a minor fudge eg "to the best of my knowledge" or "as far as I know" very quietly and quickly stuck in at the beginning or end of a massive long litany or data which is presented as fact. And it's only when you parse it that you realise that the information that was presented as fact is actually just their spin on it.

I (personally) am getting fed up at this because I see it as lying rather than acceptable spinning.

Lest anyone feel I'm being unfair to FF (Bertie himself and Mansergh and others are masters of this method) I state again - they are all at it.

For example I heard Eugene Regan on this morning stating (slightly para-phasing here!) "The tribunal are carrying out it's business as they are required - they are following the money. An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Bertie Ahern received 2 payments 30k and 50k. The tribunal has found the same amoounts lodged to Bertie Aherns accounts at that time" and here's the kicker "in 94 / 95".

Of course what he doesn't say is that the allegation was that he received 50000 in 1989 whereas the 50 lodgement to BAs account didn't occur until 6 years later and the allegation regarding the 30k was that he received it between 1989 and 1992 whereas the tribunal are looking at similar payments received in 94.

I know that politicians the world over will always get involved in an element of massaging the truth to make their position look better and we all accept that (eg.s like job announcements in the run up to elections being announced 3/4 times and credit taken for them by 3/4 politicians !). I just think what we have seen in recent years is more akin to lying than spinning. And yes - it is not unique to Ireland Tony Blair, George Bush and others all do the same - that doesn't mean it's right.

Adrem - in all honesty - you are spinning yourself - just stand back and take a look at that first paragraph you wrote - its just what Bertie has been doing with the Tribunal for the last 18 months - this story will run and run and politicans and opinion makers have been spinning and leaving bits out and being economical with the truth etc etc etc since Eve told Adam that one little bite wouldn't hurt - get used to it

Tell me this - if Bert hadn't got himself tangled up in a financial granny knot to end all granny knots vis a vis the tribunal and his self inflicited poltical death by a thousand cuts and plunge into ridicule - would you be so concerned about the morality of political and media classes? - supposing it was Enda Kenny or Eamonn Gilmore in the same position?

Edo I don't think you are being fair (or even accurate) - I'm actually highlighting this as a FF trait (see para 3) I know and accept that they do it all the time but lest they feel I'm being picking on them or being unfair to FF I'm pointing out that all parties do it. FFS !! Read the post before you respond to it.

Fair enough - I am a tad guilty of stereotyping and I take it back in that regard - but I had to ask the question as I've noticed that many of the FF posters have gone from "arra you'd ya ever leave off and yis're desparate and bitter after losing the election" just 9 months ago to now being quite studious, detached and very philosophical about our entire political system and the media reporting of such and while that is all very welcome I still get the feeling its just a classy 21st century embamned in shiny chrome version of the old FF tactic " arra sure arent they all at it and why they are pickin on little us" -

Am I heartened to see a good few of the FF posters admit that all in Bertieland might not be as he paints it - Yes - it proves that FF people are not completely insane and there is hope for the Soldiers of Destiny - at the same time I was under the impression that FF had changed and there would be no toleration of dodgy dealings and the IL Duce days of fear and loathing ala CJH were over and I am disappointed that not one FF minister or TD or senator has even mooted the possibility that Ahern might be less than kosher - maybe I might be expecting too much - and there is no question about it that a FF minister in full flight defending the leader or cause in the face of a total parallel universe reality is one of the great sights in Irish Politics and I wouldn't want to deny that pleasure to the electorate - but when is someone going to say enough is enough? - I am worried cause I have to go arm in arm with you guys in the next few months as I put the nations interest above party advantage in promoting the Lisbon Treaty - having a Taoiseach whose credibility and image are in such a state of collapse that he'll running neck and neck with Ronald McDonald at the rate things are going and whose only plausible reason for remaining Taoiseach is one long vanity project is not going to make it any easier to sell what is a very hard sell Treaty already.

Spin is the lifeblood of politics - and in the information overloaded age we live in where the media are the new overlords and the soundbite is all you have to protray an idea or version of events - Yes everybody is spinning and bending things to suit their version of events to get max advantage for their cause or belief and I know it can feel depressing - but things were ever thus - we're just looking back thru Nostalgic septia tinted lens when we think life and politics were different before - we've just changed gears and speed - Yes it can be confusing, exasperating , down right throwing your football boots at the TV frustrating - but thats why God gave us a brain to able to filter and read between the lines - Political science to be taught in all schools as a matter of urgency - but the headline " Politican caught telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the unvarnished, down the middle no bull************************ in full context of the occasion and time truth" is as far away as ever.

[adrem]

No adrem you were spinning like it were 1799.

Wasn't actually - but doesn't matter really - it would appear I'm on my own on this one. I'll curtail my activities to the usual shouting at the radio and TV and wandering around the house mumbling to myself about truth honesty the new generation and it not being like that in my day !!!

[adrem]

I think that the best example of spinning in recent times was the Turner passport story.
This non story backfired on FG and made Hogan and Enda look like complete fools and the Irish public saw this for what it was, another desperate attempt to discredit FF by spinning a non story.

No Misty you are missing the point of this.

FF have given as much as they've taken and as I've already said it is the overall question of spinning and lying I was addressing not specific party political instances.

I only included one because I heard it this morning and also (tbh) to prevent me being painted as being anti-FF (which I very much am not !)because it is clear to me anyway that FF have been guilty of quite an amount of this behaviour BUT it's not just FF.

[adrem]

Good points Edo but I'm wondering if the fact that "this is the way it has always been and will always be" is immutable or if people started to push back even a little on some of the more outrageous spinning/lying would a differrence be made.

re your comment on the philosphical FF posters - what? I think we are as mad and rabid and living up to our stereotypes as much as ever !!!