Route of Metro North announced

[alonso]

please remember the land use effects that always occur with rail. One day the Metro will reach capacity. I think too much waffle is spouted by third rate economists on railway investment because they don't understand that if you build it, the people will come.I'm sure people were saying Luas wouldn't be used when it was first planned and look at it now, the green line is already overstretched and will need to be upgraded sooner rather then later

the figures being quoted are the initial passenger numbers, on day one. These will grow hugely very quickly.

The other point that's been overlooked in this thread is that Metro will be segregated, rather than on-street like Luas. therefore it is higher quality and faster, making it a far more effective service than Luas

[michael1965]

According to wikipedia, Dublin has a higher density than Munich (which has a very good metro) and is not that much lower density than London (4,300/km2 compared to 4,700/km2). My impression of London is that most of the Greater London area is semi-d country a lot like Dublin.

This Wikipedia page is wildly wrong because it isn't comparing like with like. Dublin has nothing like a population density of 4,300. If you check out this page you will see that this only applies to the city council area, where only a portion of the metro is set to run. Either you consider the city a very small area (city council) in which there isnt enough population to justify a metro, or you draw the boundaries wide (the whole county) in which case the population is much too thin.

I wouldn't agree with that. If you include the whole county then you are then including vast amounts of undeveloped space, some of which will be developed and you have to then consider the population density as it will be not as it is now.

[GJG]

I wouldn't agree with that. If you include the whole county then you are then including vast amounts of undeveloped space, some of which will be developed and you have to then consider the population density as it will be not as it is now.

I totally agree, but the assessment has to be realistic. I would love Dublin to be high density city with good services, but that ain't comin any time soon. The situation right now is that we have an extremely low-density city. The underdeveloped space is in the inner city as much as on the outskirts.

Public transport projects are a perfect way to encourage development, and yes, we should build for future capacity, but this government can propose madcap schemes, such as motorways (capacity 12,000 vehicles per hour) to Sligo (pop. 18,000). This is clearly a case of penis-envy rather than sensible transport planning.

I'm concerned that either we are getting some below-par system (as is suggested by the very low capacity figures - 34M, as opposed to 206M on the Northern Line) or the taxpayer is being asked to fund the Martin Cullen memorial hole in the ground.

[alonso]

I wouldn't agree with that. If you include the whole county then you are then including vast amounts of undeveloped space, some of which will be developed and you have to then consider the population density as it will be not as it is now.

I totally agree, but the assessment has to be realistic. I would love Dublin to be high density city with good services, but that ain't comin any time soon. The situation right now is that we have an extremely low-density city. The underdeveloped space is in the inner city as much as on the outskirts.

Public transport projects are a perfect way to encourage development, and yes, we should build for future capacity, but this government can propose madcap schemes, such as motorways (capacity 12,000 vehicles per hour) to Sligo (pop. 18,000). This is clearly a case of penis-envy rather than sensible transport planning.

I'm concerned that either we are getting some below-par system (as is suggested by the very low capacity figures - 34M, as opposed to 206M on the Northern Line) or the taxpayer is being asked to fund the Martin Cullen memorial hole in the ground.

Firstly, Cullen deserves neither blame nor credit for the Metro, just the delays and the general muddiness that has enveloped Transport planning in Dublin since he took over.., where's the DTA ffs??

what's the source for your capacity figures?

and as for density, yeh it's true that this is a very low density city. It's impossible to compare cities though coz all countries use different definitions for "city". In Dublin the "metropolitan area" extends from Swords to Greystones and as far west as Maynooth. That's the official definition used.

what is doubtless is that the residential density guidelines are having a massive effect in Dublin (not so much in the regions outer counties). Take a look at the following locations for an illustration:
1. N11 at Stillorgan/mount Merrion
2. Adamstown
3. Sandyford Industrial Estate
4. Tallaght Town Centre
5. Stepaside/Sandyford Village
6. Docklands
7. Heuston Station

Also check out the plans for the North Fringe and the former Dun Laoghaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Consolidation and intensification are happening in the urban area and all these areas are dependent on high quality public transport.

And I agree totally with your motorway comments. This is exemplified most horribly by the construction of the M1, M2 and M3. At least 2 of these are practically parallel near the city. They never questioned the old network. Do we really need motorways to Derry and Sligo? I sincerely doubt it. Caeucescu-era nonsense...

[michael1965]

I wouldn't agree with that. If you include the whole county then you are then including vast amounts of undeveloped space, some of which will be developed and you have to then consider the population density as it will be not as it is now.

I totally agree, but the assessment has to be realistic. I would love Dublin to be high density city with good services, but that ain't comin any time soon. The situation right now is that we have an extremely low-density city. The underdeveloped space is in the inner city as much as on the outskirts.

Public transport projects are a perfect way to encourage development, and yes, we should build for future capacity, but this government can propose madcap schemes, such as motorways (capacity 12,000 vehicles per hour) to Sligo (pop. 18,000). This is clearly a case of penis-envy rather than sensible transport planning.

I'm concerned that either we are getting some below-par system (as is suggested by the very low capacity figures - 34M, as opposed to 206M on the Northern Line) or the taxpayer is being asked to fund the Martin Cullen memorial hole in the ground.

Firstly, Cullen deserves neither blame nor credit for the Metro, just the delays and the general muddiness that has enveloped Transport planning in Dublin since he took over.., where's the DTA ffs??

what's the source for your capacity figures?

and as for density, yeh it's true that this is a very low density city. It's impossible to compare cities though coz all countries use different definitions for "city". In Dublin the "metropolitan area" extends from Swords to Greystones and as far west as Maynooth. That's the official definition used.

what is doubtless is that the residential density guidelines are having a massive effect in Dublin (not so much in the regions outer counties). Take a look at the following locations for an illustration:
1. N11 at Stillorgan/mount Merrion
2. Adamstown
3. Sandyford Industrial Estate
4. Tallaght Town Centre
5. Stepaside/Sandyford Village
6. Docklands
7. Heuston Station

Also check out the plans for the North Fringe and the former Dun Laoghaire and Bray Golf Clubs. Consolidation and intensification are happening in the urban area and all these areas are dependent on high quality public transport.

8. Swords.

All of the latest development in Swords is high density.

BTW. I'm pretty sure the N4 to Sligo is not motorway. It consists of improvements to the existing road, and single-carriageway bypasses where needed.

[alonso]

yeh i meant the N/M3, which in fact leads nowhere of any significance beyond Navan. No offence Cavan and Enniskillen, but jaysus, a motorway??? ffs!