Road Pricing instead of Motor Taxes

[GJG]

Comhar, the Sustainable Development Council have recommended that road pricing (PDF) should replace all our current motor taxes. This would mean fairness, because people with more polluting vehicles, would pay more, and those who drive more would pay more.

It would also be rational because scarce resources like road space would be priced and push people to using them when there is least demand, so quieter areas would attract a lower charge, and congested areas a higher charge.

Given that this is an incredible sensible suggestion that would benefit everyone, how long will it be before the autosexuals on this site will jump all over it and scare the government off from implementing it?

[Kevin Doyle]

Comhar, the Sustainable Development Council have recommended that road pricing (PDF) should replace all our current motor taxes. This would mean fairness, because people with more polluting vehicles, would pay more, and those who drive more would pay more.

It would also be rational because scarce resources like road space would be priced and push people to using them when there is least demand, so quieter areas would attract a lower charge, and congested areas a higher charge.

Given that this is an incredible sensible suggestion that would benefit everyone, how long will it be before the autosexuals on this site will jump all over it and scare the government off from implementing it?

You honestly think anything said on this website affects anything the Governments does or does not do?

They'd have isolated the majority of users of this site as elitist, hacks, kranks, single issue propagandists, political wannabes, politically active students or some of their own. All in all, completely unrepresentative of the general public.

Joe soap, i.e. ordinary voter doesn't get anoraky about politics.

[GJG]

You honestly think anything said on this website affects anything the Governments does or does not do?

Actually no, I don't.

I would imagine that this proposal will be flayed on this site by the people on this site who think that they have a god-given right to drive at society's expense, and that the government will be scared off by people with a similar view in the press and to an extent in the wider public. Separate but connected.

[alonso]

I would like to add support to this eminiently just and sensible polluter pays approach. As such I will return to this thread with the eulogy when it is shot down by vested interests and gobsh1tes.

[rockyracoon]

Imagine that, a Politics web site that attracts the politically orientated. And you get someone beefing about all the politicos posting on it!

As for the topic. Sounds eminently fair but I think the biggest lobbies against it will be hauliers and sales reps with the former armed with a big shtick. Right now they have a fixed cost road tax scheme and this proposal would remove that by replacing it with a more than likely higher and moving cost base than is currently built into their financial models. Taking into account the significant rise in fuel costs, this additional cost will be met with stiff resistence. Imo all the tunnels, by-passes and improvment in national roads has been done in order to make goods hauling more efficient. With the advent of increased road tolling, do you think the government really wants to drive more hauliers off the road? In the current economic climate nothing that will hurt our competitiveness by increasing haulier prices further will occur. My politico tuppence worth. gl

[GJG]

With the advent of increased road tolling, do you think the government really wants to drive more hauliers off the road? In the current economic climate nothing that will hurt our competitiveness by increasing haulier prices further will occur. My politico tuppence worth. gl

Does nobody here understand any economics at all? How, precisely would hauliers be driven off the road? They operate in a totally inelastic market. No matter how they raise their prices, demand for their services will be static. The only thing that controls their prices is competition with each other. If the price of fuel goes up, it goes up for them all, so no operator gets a competitive advantage.

They can safely pass their increased costs on to their customers, without the slightest fear of losing business. What are their customers going to do? Outsource to a firm of hauliers in China?

[rockyracoon]

Why are prices "easily" passed onto customers? Do customers have a never ending hoard of cash to pay for increased prices? Simple supply and demand equations suggest that as costs/prices go up that demand falls. As demand falls, the increased costs that hauliers have to handle become unsustainable and some go out of business. The haulier business model is far from inelastic. Some will survive because there are few if any alternatives to truck haulage. In the meantime, with fewer players, you have a loss of competitiveness which has long term implications for prices. As prices increase, less goods are bought. There is less haulage in the short term anyway and decreased tax revenue.

[Petrus]

This new recommendation says "distance-based road charges which should vary according
to vehicle emissions, geographical location, and time-of day".

I presume all vehicles will need to be fitted with a GPS system.
Considering the costs involved would it not be easier to put all tax on fuel.
The fuel used will be based on milage, size of car engine, congestion etc

Am I mad or *IF* this recommendation is implemented there will be a whole new 'Road Taxing Authority' with a central dublin office, big staff to set it up and oversee the eventual operators, a private company.

Why not let revenue do it?

[GJG]

This new recommendation says "distance-based road charges which should vary according
to vehicle emissions, geographical location, and time-of day".

I presume all vehicles will need to be fitted with a GPS system.
Considering the costs involved would it not be easier to put all tax on fuel.
The fuel used will be based on milage, size of car engine, congestion etc

Am I mad or *IF* this recommendation is implemented there will be a whole new 'Road Taxing Authority' with a central dublin office, big staff to set it up and oversee the eventual operators, a private company.

Why not let revenue do it?

There are systems available whereby a beacon in the vehicle is recorded going past fixed points, however given that the cost of GPS systems is crashing this might be cheaper, especially if we are ordering 2M units, and there would be no need for roadside infrastructure. The GPS system would also allow an incredibly sophisticated version of Traffic Message Channel, which essentially can direct traffic to least congested routes, improving efficiency and travel speeds, but I suppose that would be too good to dream of.

Putting the tax on fuel would be a quick and simple way of doing something like this, but it would have the disadvantage of not being able to reduce the tax for people who travel off-peak. It would also hit rural road users who travel relatively long distances on quiet roads. The proposed system would give them lower charges, because they would not be causing congestion.

You are right that this is a complex system, and governments have not shown great skill implementing complex systems. I would propose contracting out the whole thing, with a heavy penalty clause in the contract where the charge is wrongly imposed or not imposed.

[Kevin Doyle]

With the advent of increased road tolling, do you think the government really wants to drive more hauliers off the road? In the current economic climate nothing that will hurt our competitiveness by increasing haulier prices further will occur. My politico tuppence worth. gl

Does nobody here understand any economics at all? How, precisely would hauliers be driven off the road? They operate in a totally inelastic market. No matter how they raise their prices, demand for their services will be static. The only thing that controls their prices is competition with each other. If the price of fuel goes up, it goes up for them all, so no operator gets a competitive advantage.

They can safely pass their increased costs on to their customers, without the slightest fear of losing business. What are their customers going to do? Outsource to a firm of hauliers in China?

If they can pass their increased costs on to their customers, what do you think their customers will do? Thats right, pass on their increased costs to their customers and so on until it's passed on to us.

So your initiative (road pricing) doesn't cost those who it's supposed to target anything but penalises everyone else. Polluter pays my arse.

Economics?