IALPA settlement with Aer Lingus

[Colada]

The AL workers and pilots seem to think they are civil servants in cushy jobs

I won't speak for the general staff in Aer Lingus, but the pilots are - and expect to be treated as - professionals, in one of the most demanding jobs on the planet.

,instead of employees in an international,ruthlessly competitive industry that has seen some of the best managed American airlines go under.

Best managed, eh? Hmmm.... I'm trying to think who you might mean?
Give us a clue!

This attitude could sink AL in the next economic downturn.

This attitude.
Which, the one about wanting to be shown professional respect?
How would that be then?

[Dr Jimbo]

What I could not get over was that IALPA was dead set against merit-based promotion, and insistent on seniority-based promotion. Talk about a license for time-servers!

Are you really a Doctor? If so, what would you know about merit based selection? Doctors (like most professionals in this country) have zero accountability. Only on the rarest of occasions do we see one of them hauled up for gross incompetence - and it is usually followed by a litany of evidence of cover-ups and 'rank closing' by his fellow 'professionals' - a la 'Neary' case.

Most members of the public would like to see merit based selection among doctors being judged by your patient death rate! What better measure of efficiency could there be?
But I would expect major resistance from the medical fraternity, on the grounds that such a measure would be 'unfair'.
It just goes to show how 'merit based selection' is more difficult to define than you'd like to suggest in your silly comment.

Besides which, given the higher standards of regulation in aviation than medicine, any pilot with a clean record working in a decent company has a far superior demonstrated track record than any doctor in Ireland. Or indeed most countries. Pilots kill their customers far less frequently than doctors do. This is highly meritorious, n'est ce pas?

Historically, the reason for seniority based promotion is to stop pilots being put under pressure to fly unsafely. Things like risking an approach that should be delayed. In the early days of aviation this was a serious problem. Whether it still applies in the modern world, where an airline that encourages such practises should lose its AOC is questionable.

Certainly it still applies! 90 people died in Phuket just last month because of such pressure being exerted by an airline on its pilots. No doubt the crew in question were hoping to gain 'Merit' in the eyes of the bean-counters of Air Phuket, by pushing the safety of the operation aside in pursuit of 'optimum economic performance' etc.
Failure to land in Phuket was clearly not 'Meritable performance' at this airline.
Has the airline lost its AOC?

I'm not a medical doctor, it's just my username.

I can see why there might be problems with pilots bursting a gut to fit in more landings, but I have a problem with unions being unbendingly opposed to changes in work practices and promotion decisions.

[Colada]

I'm not a medical doctor, it's just my username.

Still, I hope you take my point.

I can see why there might be problems with pilots bursting a gut to fit in more landings, but I have a problem with unions being unbendingly opposed to changes in work practices...

And who says they are?
The Meeja?

...and promotion decisions.

Without meaning any disrespect, I doubt you have the faintest idea about (a) Obtaining an ATPL, (b) Keeping it Current, (c) Legal requirements and criteria for Command conversion.

Given that is the case, I suggest you only think it would be better done your (unexplained) way, instead of the current Internationally recognised Industry Standard way.

Lastly, read this;Would you take a pay cut for the good of the country?
I think you'll see you are in a minority in your 'selflessness'.

[DaveM]

I believe that the long-term plan for AL is to leave Ireland to get rid of the overstaffing. The Shannon-Heathrow is not really about a viable route, but about breaking the terms of employment for the staff.
Aer Lingus will probably be an airline that flies into Ireland, but not majorly based here other than a token office.

Won't happen. There just has to be a period of pain where practices at Aer Lingus are brought into line with those of their competitors. Aer Lingus is well established in the Irish avaiation market (which is one of the more lucrative markets in Europe) and has a strong brand established over time. Unless they are planning on beating the likes of Ryanair purely on the basis of cost it would not make business sense to relocate to other markets where their brand is less well established and their is little or no customer goodwill towards the company.

[Kal-El]

I won't speak for the general staff in Aer Lingus, but the pilots are - and expect to be treated as - professionals, in one of the most demanding jobs on the planet.Which, the one about wanting to be shown professional respect?

Obviously you are a pilot...

Your claim that it is one of the most demanding jobs on the planet is frankly embarrassing. We all know you work something around 18 hours per week and enjoy holidays even teachers would dream of.
You earn a very good salary (certainly over €100K) and get the free/discounted flights.
If you're with Aer Lingus you are in the words of Michael O'Leary a gang of "overpaid underworked primadonnas". It's well known Aer Lingus pilots work less hours for more money than their rivals (i.e. Ryanair)

The fact is AL is no longer a state company and must be run accordingly. Trim the fat, expand and crush the unions if necessary. I as a frequent customer of Aer Lingus and as a shareholder ask all pilots and their union exactly what business of theirs they think it is if the company wants to set up a base in any foreign jurisdiction? Costs in Ireland are off the wall...on that point I'm sure we can all agree. So why in God's name export our ludicrous unionisation and overly generous pension provisions abroad? Let Irish workers retain them...they've obtained them and Irish business has been foolish enough to give them. But for businesses like AL unions and workers need to know their role. Bases outside Ireland are none of their concern. This company will be wrecked by the vested interests of the unions and workers.

[hiding behind a poster]

Its very simple. Aer Lingus have about a hundred Northern pilots, who came south to work for Aer Lingus, but would now like to go home. But they don't want to give up their defined benefit pensions - which is perfectly understandable. So this compromise is exactly what the union wanted.

[Colada]

Obviously you are a pilot...

I'm a private pilot.
I wouldn't do their job for all the tea in China. I admire them though, as they are some of the last true professionals left in a world full of incompetents and bean counters.

Your claim that it is one of the most demanding jobs on the planet is frankly embarrassing.

Your ignorance is embarrassing!
Sorry to ****************************** your bubble, but - Aer Lingus flys from Dublin to Los Angeles - an 11 hour flight. They return again the next day - another 11 hour flight.
Thats airborne time only and doesn't include time spent prepping the a/c, or doing the flight planning - which adds another 1 hr 30 mins at beginning of each sector.
A further 30 mins is spent de-planeing passengers and de-powering the aircraft at the end of the flight.
So for an LA turnaround the total duty time hits 26 hours in 2 days, across multiple time zones, and through the night. So you see right there an 18 hour week is bullcrap.

The legal limit for a pilot on a single sector is [color=red]16 hours[/color]!
Have you ever worked 16 hours non-stop through the night to arrive in a different time zone and try sleeping in daylight in a strange bed?
I seriously doubt you could hack it.

We all know you work something around 18 hours per week and enjoy holidays even teachers would dream of.

A bunch of O'Leary's prize bovine excrement. As demonstrated above.

You earn a very good salary (certainly over €100K) and get the free/discounted flights.

Aer Lingus pilots start on a salary of around 35K, and it takes over 10 years to get to the money you quote. They are worth every penny in my opinion - the standards expected off them, coupled with the responsibilities and risks of the job mean they are entitled to above average compensation. If you want an easy life get a desk job. Maybe it doesn't pay so well.

As for 'free flights'. Most of the pilots I know have wives and kids, and can't afford to stand around airports for days, just hoping there'll be a seat or two left over for them to their chosen destination. Standby travel is a sure fire way to ruin your holiday. Anyhow, the differential in price from a full fare has shrunk to almost nothing. When my pilot buddies go on holidays they buy a booked and guarenteed seat - Full Fare.

If you're with Aer Lingus you are in the words of Michael O'Leary a gang of "overpaid underworked primadonnas". It's well known Aer Lingus pilots work less hours for more money than their rivals (i.e. Ryanair)

Yeah, O'Leary. Gas man, eh!
I always find it faintly amusing to hear a multi-millionaire businessman/'gentleman-farmer' lambasting working people. His hypocrisy is only exceeded by the publics gullibility.
Like I said - too much O'Leary excrement is just sucked up.

The fact is AL is no longer a state company and must be run accordingly. Trim the fat, expand and crush the unions if necessary.

I guess its war then!
It may yet happen, because the rumour is the vote is going to go against the 'deal'. The younger guys see their jobs being exported abroad.

I as a frequent customer of Aer Lingus and as a shareholder ask all pilots and their union exactly what business of theirs they think it is if the company wants to set up a base in any foreign jurisdiction? Costs in Ireland are off the wall...on that point I'm sure we can all agree. So why in God's name export our ludicrous unionisation and overly generous pension provisions abroad? Let Irish workers retain them...they've obtained them and Irish business has been foolish enough to give them. But for businesses like AL unions and workers need to know their role. Bases outside Ireland are none of their concern. This company will be wrecked by the vested interests of the unions and workers.

It'd take too long to explain things too you, but I'll give you a hint.
A pilots 'office' is not bolted to the ground. Its moveable.
Now go figure out the implications of that yourself.

[DaveM]

Sorry to ****************************** your bubble, but - Aer Lingus flys from Dublin to Los Angeles - an 11 hour flight. They return again the next day - another 11 hour flight.
Thats airborne time only and doesn't include time spent prepping the a/c, or doing the flight planning - which adds another 1 hr 30 mins at beginning of each sector.
A further 30 mins is spent de-planeing passengers and de-powering the aircraft at the end of the flight.
So for an LA turnaround the total duty time hits 26 hours in 2 days, across multiple time zones, and through the night. So you see right there an 18 hour week is bullcrap.

Just to clarify a few points on this. Such a flight is crewed by several pilots who are rotated throughout the flight. Also for a large part of the flight the plane is on auto-pilot. It's not quite the endurance test you protray it as.

Aer Lingus pilots start on a salary of around 35K, and it takes over 10 years to get to the money you quote.

Is this not the basic salary and excludes the supplementary payments received for each flight. I seriously doubt there is a pilot in AL who is receiving a gross income of no more than €35K a year.

The bottom line is Aer Lingus pay above the industry norm and as such are at a disadvantage in competing with other airlines. Your point about a pilot's office not being "bolted to the ground" is pointless. Pilots operate from an airline's commercial base and as such the terms and conditions of employment should reflect economic realities at that base. To say otherwise would be to completely ignore the commercial realities of the air travel industry and were AL to operate in a different manner they would not be able to compete.

[Colada]

Just to clarify a few points on this. Such a flight is crewed by several pilots who are rotated throughout the flight.

Just to clarify further - the Legal Limit for a two man crew is 14 hours. By Law. The requirement for a third crew member is to allow a delayed flight continue to operate up to 18 hours.
18 hours in the middle of the night!
Incidentally, the proper way to operate a crew relief system is to have 2 Captains and an F/O, so that there will always be a Captain on the Flight Deck. Aer Lingus use 2 F/O's, which means that if the Captain is relieved the a/c is sitting over the mid Atlantic with no Command Rated pilot on the Flight Deck. It saves money - but I wonder how passengers would feel about it if they knew there is no Captain up front on their trip?
That third crew member is a legal requirement under European JAA legislation, but is portrayed (and perceived by a naiive public) as being some kind of 'restrictive Union practice'. People with no idea about Aviation Legislation or JAR OPS are waffling, basically.

Also for a large part of the flight the plane is on auto-pilot. It's not quite the endurance test you protray it as.

And the pilots are doing what? Sleeping? Picking their noses and staring out the window? An autopilot relieves the crew of the most basic function of having to pole the a/c around for 18 hours - it does not relieve them of the responsibility to navigate, to monitor systems, to monitor weather, to communicate with ATC, to manage fuel reserves, or to deal with in-flight emergencies - which more often than not these days are caused by passengers, and occur a lot more often than you imagine.

Is this not the basic salary and excludes the supplementary payments received for each flight. I seriously doubt there is a pilot in AL who is receiving a gross income of no more than €35K a year.

Well, if pilots only work 18 hours a week - as you suggest - then they can only earn 18 X ? (a sector payment is around 10 euro). That works out as another 9K per annum, but only if they actually fly. If they are grounded by illness they get no such payment.

The bottom line is Aer Lingus pay above the industry norm and as such are at a disadvantage in competing with other airlines.

Prove that statement. Link please? (and not to an O'Learyism thanks).

Your point about a pilot's office not being "bolted to the ground" is pointless. Pilots operate from an airline's commercial base and as such the terms and conditions of employment should reflect economic realities at that base.

Thats an interestring statement!
Aer Lingus' commercial base is Dublin! So you are saying all Aer Lingus pilots should be paid the same as Dublin? Even IALPA didn't demand that!

Anyhow, you're still missing the point. Try again.

[hiding behind a poster]

I won't speak for the general staff in Aer Lingus, but the pilots are - and expect to be treated as - professionals, in one of the most demanding jobs on the planet.Which, the one about wanting to be shown professional respect?

Obviously you are a pilot...

Your claim that it is one of the most demanding jobs on the planet is frankly embarrassing. We all know you work something around 18 hours per week and enjoy holidays even teachers would dream of.
You earn a very good salary (certainly over €100K) and get the free/discounted flights.
If you're with Aer Lingus you are in the words of Michael O'Leary a gang of "overpaid underworked primadonnas". It's well known Aer Lingus pilots work less hours for more money than their rivals (i.e. Ryanair)

Kal-El, I also work in aviation - and I'm not a pilot, nor do I work for Aer Lingus. And you're talking complete rubbish. You haven't a clue about what the job of a pilot entails. So kindly take off your PD blinkers, and look at the job for what it is, rather than allowing the PD ideology (which basically sh*ts on any unionised employment as a matter of course) to blind you.