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  1. #141
    Toman13 Toman13 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by beazlebottom View Post
    Subsidiarity does not mean delegating responsibility and decision making to blatantly incompetent parish pump incompetents with a track record of waste and fecklessness!
    Really? Subsidiarity is about delegating responsibilities and decision making to lower levels. That is the definition of Subsidiarity.
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  2. #142
    Sister Mercedes Sister Mercedes is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toman13 View Post
    Really? Subsidiarity is about delegating responsibilities and decision making to lower levels. That is the definition of Subsidiarity.
    I'm willing to go along with devolving powers to Leitrim CoCo, if Leitrim CoCo funds its entire budget from local taxes on Leitrim people and businesses.
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  3. #143
    Toman13 Toman13 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by GJG View Post
    You don't even have to go to your Local Authority, you can switch on Oireachtas Report and see that there simply isn't enough talent in the country to make what you are suggesting feasible. We can't even fill our (admittedly oversized) national parliament with people who can speak coherently, let alone make wise decisions. What makes you think we can do that scores of times over in different local councils?
    Do you seriously think that the Oireachtas is a representative sample of the population? The fact that there is lack of talent in the National Government has nothing to do with a lack of talent as a whole across the country - it means that the talent is not within the National administration system. There is plenty enough talent - they just need to be recruited.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJG View Post
    The structures are a function of the people in them. They are rife with featherbedding and people with a sneaking suspicion that they are doing a crap job, and therefore sabotage their workplaces to make sure nobody shows them up. A smaller number of decision-makers means that, on average, they are better quality. Adding more means scraping the barrel more.

    Just look at how these people behave when they have real power, in planning and zoning.

    Private organisations go out of business if they are not efficient, so they give a good template for achieving efficiency. A person or department performing below par will quickly have responsibilities and budget cut, not increased. This minimises damage and motivates performance.

    Your idea of rewarding failure with more money and more power simply does not work in the real world.

    This is exactly what I mean when I say that technology is forcing centralisation and specialisation - 30 years ago there were thousands of companies manufacturing computers, now there are maybe a dozen. Would you like to use a computer - or get medical treatment - from today, or from 30 years ago?

    Toman, I understand that you have no experience of workplaces, and that is showing through here, so you will just have to believe me when I say that the world simply doesn't work like that.
    GJG, your problem is that you are comparing a private enterprise to a democratic administration. It's a rubbish comparison, to say the least, and it's dangerous, too. You could make the same argument aganist having any system of local Government at all, or even worse, it could be used to justify having a single person run the entire country. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of an ordinary Joe who wants easy access to the system that he pays for with his taxes. The workplace is not a democracy - so for me, it is a ridiculous metaphor to use when trying to work out a system of local government.



    Quote Originally Posted by GJG View Post
    First of all, we already have two local authorities as big as your 'regions'. Yet another 'layer' is a horrendous idea. It means that anyone anywhere can always find someone else to blame, and none of them would even need to do any work, but I want to tackle your idea of devolving health to local government.

    Maybe you are unaware that county councils ran the Health Boards before they were abolished. It was a catastrophe, and is the genesis of most of our health problems today. But now medicine is much more specialised. Multi-disciplinary teams work in tiny specialities, and survival rates for, say, different cancers are improving rapidly.

    They need ever larger populations to generate the number of cases in ever narrower specialities. Even at 400k, there are now many ailments where that population would not generate enough cases to keep up the skills of a multi-disciplinary team.
    For a start, if it's done properly, then no-one can shift blame to anyone else. That would be something I'd make sure of.

    Second of all, my Regions would mostly be bigger than 400k. I suggested 7 regions for this country. 4,600,000 divided by 7 = approx. 657,000 per region. Denmark's Regions control Healthcare - and the smallest one is approx. 400,000. And if Denmark has the skillset to achieve that, then achieving it here wouldn't be too difficult.

    Also, comparing the old health boards to my suggestion is dishonest, because I am not suggesting that several councillors from several councils control healthcare - I am suggesting that fully-fledged Regionals Governments, with elected members and a directly-elected head should have decent control of healthcare. There is a world of difference between my suggestion and what went on before. Do I really need to have to explain it?

    Alright, if it's not obvious, I would say that the control of Healthcare under a single Regional authority, that has directly-elected members, would be more open and transparent than a relatively obscure system of boards with appointed insiders.
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  4. #144
    Toman13 Toman13 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Mercedes View Post
    I'm willing to go along with devolving powers to Leitrim CoCo, if Leitrim CoCo funds its entire budget from local taxes on Leitrim people and businesses.
    I am in favour of a transfer system. However, I do believe that most of the funding should still be sourced locally.
    Last edited by Toman13; 14th August 2012 at 01:43 PM.
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  5. #145
    daveL daveL is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunlin3 View Post
    An interesting article in the Irish Times today about the troubled finances of Sligo county Council where one of the councilors describes the state of the council finances as a basket case.

    Whats stood out for me though was the comment from the county manager Hubert Kearns on his own pay.



    Struggling council faces 'pretty awful' cuts - The Irish Times - Fri, Aug 10, 2012

    It amazes me that Mr Kearns and his ilk still think that they are worth so much in a bankrupt state.
    doesn't surprise me at all

    these people are very important
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  6. #146
    Toman13 Toman13 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveL View Post
    doesn't surprise me at all

    these people are very important
    Or so they think.....
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  7. #147
    asknoquestions asknoquestions is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toman13 View Post
    The workplace is not a democracy - so for me, it is a ridiculous metaphor to use when trying to work out a system of local government.
    Local government is more about bureaucracy than democracy and the sort of systems thinking that makes for a good bureaucracy is lacking in Ireland. You won't be any more likely to find good bureaucrats on the ground in Sligo than you will in the HSE or the financial regulators' office.
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  8. #148
    Toman13 Toman13 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by asknoquestions View Post
    Local government is more about bureaucracy than democracy and the sort of systems thinking that makes for a good bureaucracy is lacking in Ireland. You won't be any more likely to find good bureaucrats on the ground in Sligo than you will in the HSE or the financial regulators' office.
    In your opinion.
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  9. #149
    Thady Quill Thady Quill is offline
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    And now we have a fresh disaster - the collapse of Treasury holdings means the collapse of all plans for a new Sligo Town shopping centre.

    OK, technically this is a Borough Council matter but the woman who has been misleading the public for the past year or more, Paula Galagher, is a County Council Director, and most of the councillors are members of both bodies.

    ELEVEN years of waiting and the Councils have achieved SFA.
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  10. #150
    ergo2 ergo2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thady Quill View Post
    And now we have a fresh disaster - the collapse of Treasury holdings means the collapse of all plans for a new Sligo Town shopping centre.

    OK, technically this is a Borough Council matter but the woman who has been misleading the public for the past year or more, Paula Galagher, is a County Council Director, and most of the councillors are members of both bodies.

    ELEVEN years of waiting and the Councils have achieved SFA.

    How crucial was this Shopping Centre to the continued development of Sligo.?

    I suggest that there is already enough retail space in Sligo, especially in current conditions.
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