SF again speak out against restrictions on EU migration

[FutureTaoiseach]

Well MichaelR, while I stand by what I said on immigration, I also acknowledge I may be wrong on my fears on the implications for a referendum, but equally I may be right. They are Catholics yes but they are a different culture from the Irish and the fact that the Loyalists don't like them doesn't invariably mean they will side with the Nationalists. It could actually prevent native NI Nationalists winning a majority up there. Immigrants may form a 3rd force neutral on the constitutional question.

On their policy on immigration in the South, I would feel equally that the newcomers could be a neutral faction who, when they get the vote, would be less easily persuaded of a UI because as non-Irish nationals they would lack our historical analysis.

[MichaelR]

Well MichaelR, while I stand by what I said on immigration, I also acknowledge I may be wrong on my fears on the implications for a referendum, but equally I may be right. They are Catholics yes but they are a different culture from the Irish and the fact that the Loyalists don't like them doesn't invariably mean they will side with the Nationalists. It could actually prevent native NI Nationalists winning a majority up there. Immigrants may form a 3rd force neutral on the constitutional question.

You are most certainly right that they may. This may depend on how they see themselves received by the Nationalist side. And the big political party of the Nationalist side might be taking this into account when forming its line.

Whihc seems to rather nicely explain their, seemingly self-defeating, position. In this case they might be doing even more next. They are known for skills at community work - will they take a grassroots approach to bringing immigrants into their fold in the North? I'm not saying they will - but al least their present ideology forms a nice basis for it.

I'm not saying that their line should be implemented - there is much more to be said for your position than just the referendum debate. I'm *definitely* not saying that SF is great or something; take their economic policy... Just that they may have a far more logical and thought out line on immigration than their critics imply.

[factual]

Well MichaelR, while I stand by what I said on immigration, I also acknowledge I may be wrong on my fears on the implications for a referendum, but equally I may be right. They are Catholics yes but they are a different culture from the Irish and the fact that the Loyalists don't like them doesn't invariably mean they will side with the Nationalists. It could actually prevent native NI Nationalists winning a majority up there. Immigrants may form a 3rd force neutral on the constitutional question.

You are most certainly right that they may. This may depend on how they see themselves received by the Nationalist side. And the big political party of the Nationalist side might be taking this into account when forming its line.

Whihc seems to rather nicely explain their, seemingly self-defeating, position. In this case they might be doing even more next. They are known for skills at community work - will they take a grassroots approach to bringing immigrants into their fold in the North? I'm not saying they will - but al least their present ideology forms a nice basis for it.

I'm not saying that their line should be implemented - there is much more to be said for your position than just the referendum debate. I'm *definitely* not saying that SF is great or something; take their economic policy... Just that they may have a far more logical and thought out line on immigration than their critics imply.

Sinn Fein are certainly not taking the view that immigrants are goo because they will help win a referendum in the six counties. We have to get away from this whole inter-mixing of religion and politics, which you have brought into the discussion far far too much.

Sinn Fein's policy on a referendum is actually to engage positively with unionists and win their trust, and build up relationships. There could be no worse way to a united Ireland than by a demographic scenario. The best way to a United Ireland is through engagement and outreach and increasing trust and increasinly positive relationships.

Sinn Fein's attitudes to immigration are simply that Sinn Fein do not believe in erecting barriers in Europe to people who wish to move. Sinn Fein are essentially opposing a narrow xenophobic view, and that is consistent with Sinn Fein's progressive left wing stand point.

[Catalpa]

'Nasty foreigners are going to take our jobs'...the war cry from anti-immigration groups since time immemorial. The Know Nothing Party in 1850s America nearly won a Presidential Election on that basis. Surveys have shown that the majority of immigrants intend to return to their own countries after a few years so there should be no pension problems. The vast majority of immigrants come here to work and not sponge off the state. There is scant evidence of job displacement or of any downward pressure on wages. It ill behoves any Irish person to criticise immigration seeing as it was remittances from our own emigrants that kept this country afloat in the dark years pre-celtic tiger.

Surveys have shown that the majority of immigrants intend to return to their own countries after a few years so there should be no pension problems.

Really? So most most immigrants return home for good eh?

So most Irish emigrants returned to Ireland to settle after emigrating for a few years?

Wise up mate!

it was remittances from our own emigrants that kept this country afloat in the dark years pre-celtic tiger

Up to the early 1960's those remittances did help out a lot of folks but they faded away after that.

They stopped being a significant economic factor many years before the Celtic Tiger came along.

In fact the Latvians alone send out of the State some 300 million euros on an annual basis.

I think if you multiply that figure to include all the other categories of immigrants here now we would see a bleeding wound in the Celtic Tiger with a huge outflow of finance that we will never see again.

To our advantage? - I think not!

[smiffy]

On their policy on immigration in the South, I would feel equally that the newcomers could be a neutral faction who, when they get the vote, would be less easily persuaded of a UI because as non-Irish nationals they would lack our historical analysis.

Surely if your historical 'analysis' (*chuckle*) is that compelling, you'd be able to persuade them of the merits of your case, especially if they're actually neutral and have no strong preferences one way or the other.

[factual]

factual:
"There could be no worse way to a united Ireland than by a demographic scenario."

In other words, no United Ireland even if a majority of the people on the island support it?
This is truly madness.

Actually the concept that a vote in the six counties is a necessary condition for a United Ireland was accepted some time ago. Madness or not that is what all the interested parties have agreed.

The point I was making was that its most undesirable that this vote should just be some crude demographic trend increase in the number of Catholics relative to the number of Protestants.

Rather it is far better that the vote be the result of a totally transformed relationship between all the people within the six counties, and between the broad unionist community in the six counties and the people in the rest of Ireland.

The increasingly prosperous lively and diverse society that exists today can only help to thaw and then to warm up relationships.

A bad way to a united Ireland is outbreeding. A great way is a change of hearts - on everyones part - and a growing together. THis is a two way process. Its this process that Sinn Fein's outreach work is all about.

[Catalpa]

But I am more interested in drawing attention to the case before the High Court today. A young woman from Central Africa who has experienced severe medical difficulties following a childbirth will be obliged to accept a blood transfusion, despite her religious objections.

An interesting case, raising many questions of church and state, rights and responsibilites of a parent etc. I wish mother and child all the very best and a quick recovery.

But what perplexes me is how a woman from Central Africa finds herself giving birth in a hospital on Dublin's South Side. Who let this woman into the country? On what kind of a visa? Was she invited to come to Ireland, or did she invite herself? Where did she obtain her visa? If no visa, why was she admitted? Was it a virgin birth --there's no mention of father in all of this? Will she go back to Africa ASAP? Or will the Irish taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of this child? How much does her current medical care cost the Irish taxpayer, specifically people like me? Will someone give me one good reason why I should have to pay for medical care? And apart from her fecundity, what kind of "contribution" is this young woman making to Irish society?

GD

I don't know the answers to your questions but I do hope that the woman and her baby will find Ireland a tolerant and welcoming place, devoid of racism and xenophobia. I hope that they find it so welcoming that they will stay and participate in life here.

I hope not unless the mother is here with a legal work visa and can pay her own way - which I seriously doubt BTW!

This one has all the hallmarks of yet another bogus asylum seeker taking the piss at our expense.

If that is the case Factual then surely the Racism stems from the mother* and not from us?

* the newborn child is innocent obviously.

[factual]

But I am more interested in drawing attention to the case before the High Court today. A young woman from Central Africa who has experienced severe medical difficulties following a childbirth will be obliged to accept a blood transfusion, despite her religious objections.

An interesting case, raising many questions of church and state, rights and responsibilites of a parent etc. I wish mother and child all the very best and a quick recovery.

But what perplexes me is how a woman from Central Africa finds herself giving birth in a hospital on Dublin's South Side. Who let this woman into the country? On what kind of a visa? Was she invited to come to Ireland, or did she invite herself? Where did she obtain her visa? If no visa, why was she admitted? Was it a virgin birth --there's no mention of father in all of this? Will she go back to Africa ASAP? Or will the Irish taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of this child? How much does her current medical care cost the Irish taxpayer, specifically people like me? Will someone give me one good reason why I should have to pay for medical care? And apart from her fecundity, what kind of "contribution" is this young woman making to Irish society?

GD

I don't know the answers to your questions but I do hope that the woman and her baby will find Ireland a tolerant and welcoming place, devoid of racism and xenophobia. I hope that they find it so welcoming that they will stay and participate in life here.

No country can tolerate a "let them all in" immigration system such as that apparently advocated loudly by the Shinners. Our hospitals and schools cannot cope.

Sinn Fein does not have a let them all in system. The topic of the thread relates to intra-EU freedom of movement of labour. However Sinn Fein does not propose that all people outside the EU should be free to move to Ireland.

[Catalpa]

But I am more interested in drawing attention to the case before the High Court today. A young woman from Central Africa who has experienced severe medical difficulties following a childbirth will be obliged to accept a blood transfusion, despite her religious objections.

An interesting case, raising many questions of church and state, rights and responsibilites of a parent etc. I wish mother and child all the very best and a quick recovery.

But what perplexes me is how a woman from Central Africa finds herself giving birth in a hospital on Dublin's South Side. Who let this woman into the country? On what kind of a visa? Was she invited to come to Ireland, or did she invite herself? Where did she obtain her visa? If no visa, why was she admitted? Was it a virgin birth --there's no mention of father in all of this? Will she go back to Africa ASAP? Or will the Irish taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of this child? How much does her current medical care cost the Irish taxpayer, specifically people like me? Will someone give me one good reason why I should have to pay for medical care? And apart from her fecundity, what kind of "contribution" is this young woman making to Irish society?

GD

I don't know the answers to your questions but I do hope that the woman and her baby will find Ireland a tolerant and welcoming place, devoid of racism and xenophobia. I hope that they find it so welcoming that they will stay and participate in life here.

No country can tolerate a "let them all in" immigration system such as that apparently advocated loudly by the Shinners. Our hospitals and schools cannot cope.

Sinn Fein does not have a let them all in system. The topic of the thread relates to intra-EU freedom of movement of labour. However Sinn Fein does not propose that all people outside the EU should be free to move to Ireland.

Well well well - knock me over with a feather lads!

Factual now claims that SF does not have a let them all in system?

Please tell us how you are going to stop them coming here so?

(This should interesting!) :P

[georgedillon]

Factual:

"I do hope that the woman and her baby will find Ireland a tolerant and welcoming place, devoid of racism and xenophobia. I hope that they find it so welcoming that they will stay and participate in life here."

What's the population of the Congo? 60 million, give or take ? Given the standard of living, and particularly the civil wars the Congolese have inflicted on themselves over the years, I'll bet half of them would be happy to emigrate to Ireland.

What do you think, Factual (Sinn Fein)? Should we "welcome" 30 million Congolese and hope that "they will stay and participate in life here"?

No need to answer me, just tell the people the truth when you're canvassing for votes. Don't lie, as I am already hearing is the tactic du jour employed by SF canvassers when they come across Irish people who vigorously oppose NSF's "Open-Door" policies.

Just think. SF is now a party, if we accept Factual as a spokesman, which doesn't support a United Ireland even if a majority of Irish people favour it, but who do favour the "right" of people from all corners of the world to set up residence in Ireland and live off Irish taxpayers!!

Truly the lunatics are now running the SF asylum.
GD