Another SF Councillor going?

[Quinn1505]

' Can't imagine a member of the British conservative party or indeed the DUP/UUP doing it either. '

That is some yeard stick to be measuring SF's conservatism against. Religious fundamentalists and the British establishment.

It really says a lot about where SF find themselves.

Pat, I would say the abortion issue and religion. I also think they are more pro-business up here, depending I suppose on the good-will of successful contractors etc.
I think the political sectarianism that SF are trapped in ( and I am not saying SF are sectarian in the ordinary sense), helps to create an image of an extreme religious party- not helped by Martin's rosary bead productions.
The institutions are sectarian by nature, the voting patterns are sectarian, and it is off-putting to most Southerners I know.

[Quinn1505]

'A lot of it too is that SF elected reps are paid by the party not by the state, they get the average industrial wage, with the rest being paid in to the party coffers to fund growth. '

This has been claimed over and over again by SF, yet they never to my knoweldge produce the books to prove it.
There are not many poor Sinn feiners around these days- that is another bone of contention that needs to be addressed. Most people on industrial weekly wages do not have holiday homes ( more than one) in Portugal etc.

More importantly, this industrial wage claim should have worked FOR SF in the recent elections, considering the electorate's fury re: elected reps. expenses- BUT then, Sinn Fein have their noses in that trough as well!!!!

[Eorna]

Duth Ealla

I think that why socialists have been shown to be idealogically bankrupt is

1. They themselves no longer have confidence in their economic analysis. It does not seem to be evolving, but is stuck in politically interesting tracts from over a hundred years ago.
2. The left has always traditionally been a divided family where those who are part of a different view of socialism ie Trots, are enemies of the correct version. New thinking is not encouraged as it leads to splits, and shouts of class traitor.

With regards to your question of Socialism being a failure in the past, the replies that it has not been tried yet, that communism and the so called socialist states to date have not been truly socialist. I can see the logic in that, but will they not see that after all the socialist revolutions in the last 90 years, how come they all keep ending in failure, as the stalin types take over.

[JollyRedGiant]

It is clear that all is not well within SF - and there is an atttempt to push the party further to the right in the mistaken belief that this will improve electoral fortunes (Murphy's reunification canpaign is an example of this). Being a nationalist party with many left-wingers within its rank-and-file - a conflict based on a right-left divide is inevitable and as long as there are socialists within SF will repeatedly surface. The problem of socialists within SF is the fact that the leadership are firmly welded to nationalism and will continually attempt to move the party to the right - and they will win any political battle within SF because the left in SF lacks a real base within working class organisations, particularly the trade unions.

As always, socialists within SF are going to be faced with a decision - split from SF and continue to campaign for socialism outside the party - or - capitulate to nationalism and move to the right with the leadership. Any socialist in SF who is serious about building a fighting left-wing alternative to the establishment should go and find a member of the Socialist Party and talk to them.

[Duth Ealla]

Good post. Now can someone explain what exactly is a worker or as Joe Higgins says 'ordinary working people'? Who fits this description?

A worker is someone who earns either minimum wage but its also the person earning quarter of a million a year.

Its not a bad term in and of itself but when someone uses the term and imagines that the "worker" of 2009 is the same as the "worker" in 1900 slum factories then it falls to pieces and makes no sense.

Unfortunately the down side here is that genuine grievances and intolerable circumstances continue all because the left refuses to throw away a way of thinking thats based on either dickensian Factories or else some type of Latifundia. There are some left wingers here who believe a small farmer with 60 acres is capitalist pig. To my mind thats theory gone made and common sense just gone.

why is the left content with daydreams and nonsense.

[JollyRedGiant]

More importantly, this industrial wage claim should have worked FOR SF in the recent elections, considering the electorate's fury re: elected reps. expenses- BUT then, Sinn Fein have their noses in that trough as well!!!!

I would necessarily agree with this - but it certainly does not help SF's cause when they do deals with FF and FG to divide the soils at local council level.

[Quinn1505]

'The re-election of Martin Ferris in 2007 and the substantial increase in the SF vote in North Kerry in the locals proves that hard work, a visable organisation and a decent PR machine will reap dividends.'

That is a fact.
With the negative publicity Martin Ferris received, he has overcome it, with hard work on the ground.
Martin of course continues to live in his council house, does not holiday all summer- he farms and fishes, I believe, and he is still viewed as a working calss hero by many. A lesson for SF in there somewhere, considering the performance of Toireasa in the EU elections.

[codology]

It is clear that all is not well within SF - and there is an atttempt to push the party further to the right in the mistaken belief that this will improve electoral fortunes (Murphy's reunification canpaign is an example of this). Being a nationalist party with many left-wingers within its rank-and-file - a conflict based on a right-left divide is inevitable and as long as there are socialists within SF will repeatedly surface. The problem of socialists within SF is the fact that the leadership are firmly welded to nationalism and will continually attempt to move the party to the right - and they will win any political battle within SF because the left in SF lacks a real base within working class organisations, particularly the trade unions.

As always, socialists within SF are going to be faced with a decision - split from SF and continue to campaign for socialism outside the party - or - capitulate to nationalism and move to the right with the leadership. Any socialist in SF who is serious about building a fighting left-wing alternative to the establishment should go and find a member of the Socialist Party and talk to them.

I agree with mant of the SP policies but ts the fact that it does'nt give a flying f..k about reunification that would stop many like me from supporting them.

[Duth Ealla]

I agree with mant of the SP policies but ts the fact that it does'nt give a flying f..k about reunification that would stop many like me from supporting them.

unification is on their agenda definitely. But on a wider scale. the SP envisages a stage were socialist parties in each of 4 nations in Britain and Ireland are in power and having created equitable socialist societies in each it would be put to the people that a federation of workers be created so as to consolidate the workers' gains.

Thereafter it would be europe wide. The main thrust of the idea being, if i am correct, that it would be a joining of equals, and certainly would not be similar to the current flawed union because it would have replaced that model totally.

I personally dont see why such a question would ever need to be put to the people.

[scrawledincrayon]

I agree with mant of the SP policies but ts the fact that it does'nt give a flying f..k about reunification that would stop many like me from supporting them.

The issue here is how you see reunification coming about.

For many years, Republicans thought that they could bomb their way to a united Ireland. Socialists told them right from the start that they were wrong and that the armed campaign would fail, leading only to increased division amongst the working class, a massive build up in the repressive apparatus of the state and the death or imprisonment of generations of activists. History has shown pretty conclusively who was right on that issue.

Now Republicans don't seem to have any strategy for reunification. You get the odd headbanger who thinks that having the Catholics outbreed the Protestants will somehow do it. You get a lot of waffle and mystical talk about things like having SF in government North or South simultaneously (as a junior coalition partner in right wing governments!). You get some more magical thinking about the meaningless North South bodies growing into something more, or similarly inane stuff about the mere process of having Unionists sit in a power sharing government with Republicans somehow changing the situation. But there's no coherent strategy at all.

Socialists on the other hand think that reunification is possible only as a result of combined working class action and politics, leading to the erosion of sectarian division. That strategy may or may not be workable, but the likes of the Socialist Party with their small forces do at least have one which is more than can be said for Republicanism today.