Ard Fheis

[Wednesday]

I had a problem with ruling out coalition on the grounds that it would make it very hard to campaign in the next GE if we have ruled ourselves out of being in the position to put into action our policies. I would have no problem telling people what we stand for and also the conditions which we would go in under (and there would be a lot if I have my way), but telling them that we will have no way to implement policy because we will not go into coalition even if a republican programme could be negotiated would be a mistake im my opinion, why publish a manifesto if that is the case.

We've always published a manifesto even when we've had no chance whatsoever of going into coalition (and frankly I think we have only slightly more chance than that next year). I just don't buy the argument that people won't vote for us unless they think we might get into government, for reasons I don't really want to get into here, but I'll be happy to discuss them with you at Conway's sometime

[brenners']

Fair enough Wednesday, it will give you time to come up with a decent response. :P :P :P

[Seamus]

I disagree. Socialists often alienate farmers and rural people by their archaic language and their sometimes anti-catholic agenda.

Nevertheless I believe rural Irish people could be much more favourable to socialism than other people. The Meithal system which has only fully died out in recent years is a fine example of this, cooperatives in the west of Ireland as well. The speech I heard by Micheal O Sheighin a few months ago convinced me of this: how many poorer rural people see the conditions they are in. Native socialism will answer the problems of many of the small farmers and rural people.

It is up to socialists to present this to rural people in a way that is unstandable to them. Talking about the prolitarite has no meaning in the countryside. Also rural people are mostly religious, and the zealous secular agenda of many on the so-called left alienates them. many on the left have no concept of the issues of farmers

i would agree with some of what you have said but the fact is that socialism is still compared to communism and the mindset of farmers would be that psf are anti capitalists with farming being very much a capitalist venture.

as well as that farming is a very tough occupation with poor hours etc and most farmers would be of the opinion if socialism came that they would have to give up their land to the state and be prevented from making any sort of living which justifies the long hours.

it isnt a coincidence that socialism is popular in urban areas such as belfast and dublin because socialism would benefit working class areas factory workers etc and i feel rural republicans need to take a hardline over being bullied into a socialist deal that would rip the heart of rural ireland.

[ON THE ONE ROAD]

I've just read that a motion was tabled at the Af calling for the expulsion from SF of reps who vote in favour of bin charges.

I'm sure this has been answered before, but humour me.

What are SF proposing: that people should be able to put as much as they want into their household bins, and that these bins should be be collected free of charge?

if memory serves the original argument was that it was double taxation. when household rates were abolised in the 70's paye was increased the money went to central gov and back to local govennment one arument was that people always did pay bin charges why should they pay them twice.

another oposition was that bins became a privite for profit venture by oxygen doing work once done by the council. oxygen have a monopoly on household waste colection whats to stop them increaseing there prices it's not like someone can do it cheaper.

personally i do believe all waste should be collected free of charge. i think theres a diferance between a buisness and a service. buisiness'e provide luxuries. services provide necessities. If for what ever reason my neighbour can't afford to get his bins collected in time that will effect me and my family in that it's dangerous to my health, i think a way of gaurnteeing that rats aren't running around my garden is to make sure my neighbour has no obsticles to sanitation control in in house. the way to do that is to gaurntee a free bin service. in my opinion.

[Wednesday]

Fair enough Wednesday, it will give you time to come up with a decent response. :P :P :P

If you'd bothered your arse coming to the Cúige meetings where we debated these motions you'd already have heard my "decent response"

[Ernie O'malley]

While disappointed with many of the Ard Fheis's positions ('flexability' on policing= permission, rejection of the explicit pro-life position.) It's good to see that the SF Ard Fheis is at least provoking discussion and debate. While I would favor more debate and less motions, the SF Ard Fheis at least prompts serious discussions, no one sits up reading the Fianna Fail Clar (I think the Fine Gael one can be found on Labour's website) :wink:

However it is the interest of all to have more open debate and to challenge the leadership when needed in order to foster healthy discussions and lessen the possiblity of any defections/splits. The lack of candid lines of communications in other Republican organizations in recent months over certain decisions has caused division and disillusionment. Hopefully this can be avoided in Sinn Fein by robust democratic dialogue.

[popper]

Yes it is. Ireland is out of step with the modern world on this issue.

No, we're not.

OK, name the advanced democracies that have abortion restrictions as draconian as ours.

"Advanced democracies" !!! What, like the one that currently occupies the north eastern part of our country?

Well, as an advanced democracy the people of this state have rejected any moves towards opening the door to abortion any time they were asked their opinion. I have no doubt but that the people of the Six Counties would have done the same had they been given a say in 1967 when the great advanced democracy across the Irish Sea decided that at a time when liberal sensitivities could no longer abide the notion of executing scum like Hindley and Brady that it was okay to kill unborn children.

[DOD]

I had a problem with ruling out coalition on the grounds that it would make it very hard to campaign in the next GE if we have ruled ourselves out of being in the position to put into action our policies. I would have no problem telling people what we stand for and also the conditions which we would go in under (and there would be a lot if I have my way), but telling them that we will have no way to implement policy because we will not go into coalition even if a republican programme could be negotiated would be a mistake im my opinion, why publish a manifesto if that is the case.

We've always published a manifesto even when we've had no chance whatsoever of going into coalition (and frankly I think we have only slightly more chance than that next year). I just don't buy the argument that people won't vote for us unless they think we might get into government, for reasons I don't really want to get into here, but I'll be happy to discuss them with you at Conway's sometime

I agree. Most people will vote for us on what we stand for and I also think there are people who might vote for us that may be reluctant if they think we would go into coalition. (With the righties)

[martan]

Yes it is. Ireland is out of step with the modern world on this issue.

No, we're not.

OK, name the advanced democracies that have abortion restrictions as draconian as ours.

"Advanced democracies" !!! What, like the one that currently occupies the north eastern part of our country?

Well, as an advanced democracy the people of this state have rejected any moves towards opening the door to abortion any time they were asked their opinion. I have no doubt but that the people of the Six Counties would have done the same had they been given a say in 1967 when the great advanced democracy across the Irish Sea decided that at a time when liberal sensitivities could no longer abide the notion of executing scum like Hindley and Brady that it was okay to kill unborn children.

Advanced democracies, like the UK. No thanks. He's got you there!

I disagree. Socialists often alienate farmers and rural people by their archaic language and their sometimes anti-catholic agenda.

Nevertheless I believe rural Irish people could be much more favourable to socialism than other people. The Meithal system which has only fully died out in recent years is a fine example of this, cooperatives in the west of Ireland as well. The speech I heard by Micheal O Sheighin a few months ago convinced me of this: how many poorer rural people see the conditions they are in. Native socialism will answer the problems of many of the small farmers and rural people.

It is up to socialists to present this to rural people in a way that is unstandable to them. Talking about the prolitarite has no meaning in the countryside. Also rural people are mostly religious, and the zealous secular agenda of many on the so-called left alienates them. many on the left have no concept of the issues of farmers

i would agree with some of what you have said but the fact is that socialism is still compared to communism and the mindset of farmers would be that psf are anti capitalists with farming being very much a capitalist venture.

as well as that farming is a very tough occupation with poor hours etc and most farmers would be of the opinion if socialism came that they would have to give up their land to the state and be prevented from making any sort of living which justifies the long hours.

it isnt a coincidence that socialism is popular in urban areas such as belfast and dublin because socialism would benefit working class areas factory workers etc and i feel rural republicans need to take a hardline over being bullied into a socialist deal that would rip the heart of rural ireland.

Well, it depends on what you mean by socialist. Not everyone in rural areas or small towns are farmers, though (although they might be working in the agricultural sector). I think SF has a lot to offer workers in agri-business and I think Labour seems unable to reach this constituency. SF will never be in a serious position to participate in a coalition of the Left, never mind lead one, unless it can capture rural votes. As it happens, SF has a longstanding base in certain rural areas and is better placed than the microleft or Labour even. Just look how well Pearse Doherty did in the 2004 European Elections as opposed to Hughie Baxter.

Labour really, really suck.

[brenners']

Fair enough Wednesday, it will give you time to come up with a decent response. :P :P :P

If you'd bothered your arse coming to the Cúige meetings where we debated these motions you'd already have heard my "decent response"

I go to the Cuige once a year and its once too many (was there twice last year, but as a mere cumman member I dont get asked to attend). I hear this years one dealing with motions was quite long. Having said that we spent 3 1/2 hours in our own cumman debating the the motions and 2 1/2 hours debating which motions we would actually submit in the first place (most of it my fault) so I dont think I could have done another 4 hours as well.
I am sure all our aurguments against coalition are cogent ones BTW and I look forward to having my butt kicked by you at some stage on the issue.