Dáil Éireann

[Danny Invincible]

Yet, you also claim to recognise the legitimacy of the potential state proclaimed in 1916. This proclamation envisaged a completely different state from the one we live in today. The existence of one denies to existence of the other. They are polars and so are impossible to co-recognise.

The potential state? I have to remember that one.

Isn't that exactly what it was?

[quote=cain1798]There is ONE legitimate government of this state. Details about it can be found at www.irlgov.ie . I do not believe there is some secret government wandering around Longford somewhere that is the 'real' government. Nor do I believe the IRA Army Council is the legitimate government. Despite Mickser McDowell's comments, this is not Sinn Féin policy.

Jeffrey Donaldson? Surely his actions would have to be dealt with by the legal system of Northern Ireland or the UK if that's where he committed the alleged crimes. If not, then generally the legal system of whichever jurisdiction he committed such crimes in would address his actions.

Do either jurisdictions consider his actions a crime?

Which actions exactly? They may consider them a crime but that does not give them power to dispense the appropriate justice.


I owe my POLITICAL allegiance to the Irish Republic declared in 1916. I believe this Republic was overthrown by the Counter-Revolution of 1922. But it is the restoration of this republic that I am devoted to as a republican.

This does NOT mean that I believe the Second Dail to be the legitimate government of Ireland. For one thing it doesn't even exist.[/quote:2vt3x3ur]
But surely if you owe allegiance to the state declared in 1916, naturally you are advocating its ideals as the only truly legitimate ideals under which the territory of Ireland may be governed. True legitimacy does not necessarily require existence and the state envisaged by the 1916 Proclamation is in direct conflict with the 1937 Republic's Constitution. Essentially, they are two different states laying claim over the same territory.

[quote=edifice.]

Jeffrey Donaldson? Surely his actions would have to be dealt with by the legal system of Northern Ireland or the UK if that's where he committed the alleged crimes. If not, then generally the legal system of whichever jurisdiction he committed such crimes in would address his actions.

Do either jurisdictions consider his actions a crime?[/quote:2vt3x3ur]
Which actions exactly? They may consider them a crime but that does not give them power to dispense the appropriate justice.

[edifice.]

Which actions exactly? They may consider them a crime but that does not give them power to dispense the appropriate justice.

His actions as a British agent.

[Batman]

I think it is worth saying that in 1916 they did not intend on establishing a Republic there and then but were proclaiming one, by force of arms.

Sinn Fein have not accepted that the AC of the IRA is the legitimate Government of All-Ireland since 1986.

[cain1798]

Nor do I believe the IRA Army Council is the legitimate government. Despite Mickser McDowell's comments, this is not Sinn Féin policy.

Do you have a source for this? I remember Mitchel McLoughlin refusing to deny it when it was put to him by McDowell.

Do you have a source for that because I think I know what you are referring to and you're not remembering correctly.

I can point you to Adams' speech at the 2005 Ard Fheis:
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/8771

"Sinn Féin is accused of recognising the Army Council of the IRA as the legitimate government of this island. That is not the case. The supreme governing and legislative body of Sinn Féin is the Ard Fheis. This is where this party makes its big decisions. This is where we elect our leadership, agree our policies and set in place our strategies.

I do not believe that the Army Council is the government of Ireland. Such a government will only exist when all the people of this island elect it. Does Sinn Féin accept the institutions of this state as the legitimate institutions of this state? Of course we do. But we are critical of these institutions. We are entitled to be."

[edifice.]

"Sinn Féin is accused of recognising the Army Council of the IRA as the legitimate government of this island. That is not the case. The supreme governing and legislative body of Sinn Féin is the Ard Fheis. This is where this party makes its big decisions. This is where we elect our leadership, agree our policies and set in place our strategies.

I do not believe that the Army Council is the government of Ireland. Such a government will only exist when all the people of this island elect it. Does Sinn Féin accept the institutions of this state as the legitimate institutions of this state? Of course we do. But we are critical of these institutions. We are entitled to be."

But is the state legitimate?

[Danny Invincible]

[quote=edifice.]

Which actions exactly? They may consider them a crime but that does not give them power to dispense the appropriate justice.

His actions as a British agent.[/quote:366uhnio]
Oh, Denis Donaldson.

I think it can only be a matter for the British legal system. Would you disagree?

[qtman]

Do you have a source for that because I think I know what you are referring to and you're not remembering correctly.

It was on Q&A, before the Ard Fheis. I can't remember MMcL's exact response, but it wasn't unequivocal.

I take your point re. Adam's speech.

[cain1798]

But surely if you owe allegiance to the state declared in 1916, naturally you are advocating its ideals as the only truly legitimate ideals under which the territory of Ireland may be governed. True legitimacy does not necessarily require existence and the state envisaged by the 1916 Proclamation is in direct conflict with the 1937 Republic's Constitution. Essentially, they are two different states laying claim over the same territory.

Danny old chap, you might not think things need to exist to legitimately govern an island. I happen to disagree and think at a minimum it's useful.

As I pointed out, possibly in two posts already or only once, the Republic declared in 1916 does not exist anymore. It was destroyed. I, like anyone else in Sinn Féin, work to restore it. This does not mean we believe it exists. We aim to create a new republic, replacing the 1937 Constitution, which as a partitionist document cannot govern for the whole island, and build a new republic based on the founding principles of aforementioned documents.

I'm really at a loss as to how you're not able to understand this concept. I mean we can keep going round and round on this until I get bored and head off to the pub but alternatively you could try and think this through.

[qtman]

Braaaaaakkkkkkeeeeees!

I can point you to Adams' speech at the 2005 Ard Fheis:
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/8771

I do not believe that the Army Council is the government of Ireland. Such a government will only exist when all the people of this island elect it.

So there is no Government of Ireland? What is there then?

[edifice.]

I think it can only be a matter for the British legal system. Would you disagree?

They don't consider his actions a crime. But republicans do hence the original question given that previous agents have ended up dead. By what legitimate authority?