SF and the Irish economy - pointing fingers, but no plans

[wysiwyg]

Do you know, what is most interesting about economic threads such as these, is that some of the best and most knowledgeable posters regarding economic matters, are supporters of Sinn Fein or are at least ambivalent towards Sinn Fein

people like Rockyracoon, Sidewinder, RoC or ambivalent like Anoraknaphobia, Edo, Youngdan etc...

Some of the ones who hate Sinn Fein the most, or spout the same old rubbish about Sinn Fein any time SF are mentioned are the ones who either completely avoid the economic threads, or, when they wonder into them, display the ignorance of a monkey with a screwdriver looking into the back of a television set ...

Now..... while I may agree or disagree with some, a lot, or all of what Sinn Fein propose economically, at least those who seem to know what they are at regarding economics, don't seem to be much in mind of them.

Name 3 decent economic posters who support FF ? Or FG ? or Labour ?

[rockyracoon]

My guess at what SF would do if in government on their own

- Introduce a third higher tax band, aimed a higher earners. I'm guessing probably a 50% rate for earnings over €50k/annum
- Raise the minimum wage to ~€10/hr
- Up social welfare benefits like state pension, child benefit etc.
- Increase corporation tax and capital gains tax
- Nationalise industries like telecoms, aerlingus
- Detach Ireland as much as possible from the EU without actually leaving
- Remove the special status of the IFSC
- Renege on PPPs where possible

I think that's a pretty fair assumption from a liberal who would become clinically depressed if SF came to power.

Your "guess(es)" are completely wide of the mark. They are based on no factual evidence whatsoever. Given your last sentence, I can guess that your guesses are based on pre-concieved assumptions you wish to put into a public arena in the hope that they gain validation.

Ahh i'm not that far off the mark in fairness. They're based on my assumption that SF is a left-wing social democratic/socialist party.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/205 is what I took a quick look at.

I am of course completely open to correction and would listen with interest to any SFs detailed explaination of what SF would do economically if they were in power on their own.

No nationalisation of any industries on the cards
No removal of IFSC
No reneging on PPP's - but they have to be cost effective and broadly socially beneficial. If they do not meet minimum these min criteria, they should be reviwed.

Europe: SF has always said it would abide by the will of the people via referendums on European issues. It has no intention on taking Ireland out of Europe or reneging on its commitments as constituted through treaties

Coporate and Capital tax will be reviewed but I'm of the opinion will not be changed - especially corp tax. The marginal effects of capital taxes on the economy and finances have to be reviewed to make sure they do not have adverse impacts.

Yes, SF is commited to helping the most needy within our society. This is their main priority at this time. It has set bugetary targets in specific figures.

Like every party, SF wants jobs for all citizens or every citizen that can work should be working. Jobs whose wages can sustain a viable long term living standard. We have to address our high cost of living. (But it's a big complex issue that is ongoing in debate. It's no good just addressing the wage factor without taking into account the cost of living factor.)

SF is not anti-business and recognises the importance of private enterprise in creating jobs and wealth. SF knows it is vitally important to foster native start-up business that have potential to create jobs but we cannot afford to throw money at every start up. We need to go to people who've started new businesses and get their feedback on how various state support agencies help or hindered their progress.

Real-politicks: SF knows it is not going to be leading any government in the south anytime soon. It's economic policies, while focusing primarily on the disadvantaged, has to be workable within the broad economy as it is constituted and how the major parties currently operate their own economic policies.

SF are currently working on their policies. They will focus on the what they percieve to be disadvantages wether on individuals or businesses. They are certainly not the be all end all of economic policy makers. The job is to create policies that are workable and implementable within the political and economic realities in Ireland.

[goosebump]

My guess at what SF would do if in government on their own

- Introduce a third higher tax band, aimed a higher earners. I'm guessing probably a 50% rate for earnings over €50k/annum
- Raise the minimum wage to ~€10/hr
- Up social welfare benefits like state pension, child benefit etc.
- Increase corporation tax and capital gains tax
- Nationalise industries like telecoms, aerlingus
- Detach Ireland as much as possible from the EU without actually leaving
- Remove the special status of the IFSC
- Renege on PPPs where possible

I think that's a pretty fair assumption from a liberal who would become clinically depressed if SF came to power.

Your "guess(es)" are completely wide of the mark. They are based on no factual evidence whatsoever. Given your last sentence, I can guess that your guesses are based on pre-concieved assumptions you wish to put into a public arena in the hope that they gain validation.

Ahh i'm not that far off the mark in fairness. They're based on my assumption that SF is a left-wing social democratic/socialist party.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/205 is what I took a quick look at.

I am of course completely open to correction and would listen with interest to any SFs detailed explaination of what SF would do economically if they were in power on their own.

No nationalisation of any industries on the cards
No removal of IFSC
No reneging on PPP's - but they have to be cost effective and broadly socially beneficial. If they do not meet minimum these min criteria, they should be reviwed.

Europe: SF has always said it would abide by the will of the people via referendums on European issues. It has no intention on taking Ireland out of Europe or reneging on its commitments as constituted through treaties

Coporate and Capital tax will be reviewed but I'm of the opinion will not be changed - especially corp tax. The marginal effects of capital taxes on the economy and finances have to be reviewed to make sure they do not have adverse impacts.

Yes, SF is commited to helping the most needy within our society. This is their main priority at this time. It has set bugetary targets in specific figures.

Like every party, SF wants jobs for all citizens or every citizen that can work should be working. Jobs whose wages can sustain a viable long term living standard. We have to address our high cost of living. (But it's a big complex issue that is ongoing in debate. It's no good just addressing the wage factor without taking into account the cost of living factor.)

SF is not anti-business and recognises the importance of private enterprise in creating jobs and wealth. SF knows it is vitally important to foster native start-up business that have potential to create jobs but we cannot afford to throw money at every start up. We need to go to people who've started new businesses and get their feedback on how various state support agencies help or hindered their progress.

Real-politicks: SF knows it is not going to be leading any government in the south anytime soon. It's economic policies, while focusing primarily on the disadvantaged, has to be workable within the broad economy as it is constituted and how the major parties currently operate their own economic policies.

SF are currently working on their policies. They will focus on the what they percieve to be disadvantages wether on individuals or businesses. They are certainly not the be all end all of economic policy makers. The job is to create policies that are workable and implementable within the political and economic realities in Ireland.

This all rhetoric.

There is only one economic question for Irish political parties:

Will you cut current public spending?

You can waffle away all you want about 'fostering native start-up business' but the bottom line is that unless we can be more productive than our competitors, we won't create jobs.

So, will SF cut current public expenditure? If not, I refer you back to the Hindenberg image.

[MacCoise]

Will you cut current public spending?

You can waffle away all you want about 'fostering native start-up business' but the bottom line is that unless we can be more productive than our competitors, we won't create jobs.

So, will SF cut current public expenditure? If not, I refer you back to the Hindenberg image.

Well, how can we argue with somebody with such a fantastically deep economic genius?

[Weesix]

Sinn Fein have traditionally only had one economic policy: Double our corporation tax rate and destroy thousands of jobs in the multinational sector.

Yeah, the mantra is 'tax the rich & increase social welfare'.

Gerry halfwit adams never pieced it together that the rich are mobile.

McDowell showed them up for what they are.

He lost his seat.

[Weesix]

Someone else blamed Sinn Fein for the economic situation north of Athlone which if you want a decent debate on this that could maybe open all our eyes to a more realistic approach then Europe didn't in itself guarantee economic success and neither are FF integral to it either. The pothole economy isn't that distant a memory and in some urban and rural areas it never went away. FF were extremely wasteful and manipulative of the economic success generated by external investments that were used to boom Ireland. The big investors were at the departure lounge before the election in 07 and FF couldn't admit it and mislead many voters in to staking their securities by predicting further growth. The lack of genuine sporting facilities, the pathetic network of public services and the failure to build roads and infrastructure to cope with demand e.g. the M50 is too small.

[goosebump]

Will you cut current public spending?

You can waffle away all you want about 'fostering native start-up business' but the bottom line is that unless we can be more productive than our competitors, we won't create jobs.

So, will SF cut current public expenditure? If not, I refer you back to the Hindenberg image.

Well, how can we argue with somebody with such a fantastically deep economic genius?

Typically trite answer.

Public expenditure and economic competitiveness are intrinsically linked, other than in the Fantasy World occupied by the likes of SF.

[MacCoise]

Public expenditure and economic competitiveness are intrinsically linked, other than in the Fantasy World occupied by the likes of SF.

How can you be competitive if you have uneducated workers due to cuts in education, a sick workforce due to cuts in health and those healthy, educated workers stuck in traffic jams because of public transport cuts?

You're the only economic simpleton here

[markeys]

No nationalisation of any industries on the cards
No removal of IFSC
No reneging on PPP's - but they have to be cost effective and broadly socially beneficial. If they do not meet minimum these min criteria, they should be reviwed.

Europe: SF has always said it would abide by the will of the people via referendums on European issues. It has no intention on taking Ireland out of Europe or reneging on its commitments as constituted through treaties

Welcome developments I had not known about. I'll ignore the obvious point of ignoring the will of the people for the last 30 years. I don't believe any party coming into power could afford to increase the corporation tax rate. Even a miniscule rise would send a bad signal to foreign companies here or thinking of coming here that the corporation tax could increase again in the future. We need to be clear to them that the tax rate is here to stay.

Do you have any guidelines as what constitues socially beneficial? I'm not a big fan of PPP's, I don't believe they offer the best solution always.

[goosebump]

Public expenditure and economic competitiveness are intrinsically linked, other than in the Fantasy World occupied by the likes of SF.

How can you be competitive if you have uneducated workers due to cuts in education, a sick workforce due to cuts in health and those healthy, educated workers stuck in traffic jams because of public transport cuts?

You allow the Market to provide these services and have the State purchase them rather than provide them. It isn't rocket science.