Michael Collins

[DOD]

I was talking to a guy last night who claimed he voted SF (even though he is scared by our economic policies), he was very drunk, so talking to him about politics was risky anyway, but he really drove me daft when talking about Michael Collins. He was on about how republicans were bastards to kill Collins, he was for Ireland and all that. The same guy said he accepted my point when I said Michael collins was on the Free State army so Anti-Treatyites were naturally going to try to shoot him during a civil war. Recently a guy in Belfast said, when he found out I was from West Cork, "Ye Bawstards shot Michael Collins" I can only assume he was anti-treaty himself (as was your man last night) so I found his attitude amusing. Do any other shinners find that some republican people are totally all over the place on Michael Collins. If you respect him fair enough, it's surprising how many Shinners are big into him, but don't condemn the side you would have supported for killing someone on the other side. The man who (albeit reluctantly) ordered the shelling of the four courts which started the war.

[jjcarroll]

The man who (albeit reluctantly) ordered the shelling of the four courts which started the war.

That is a fairly reductionist way to look at things.

[Rocky]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

[ChrIreland]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

Collins and his men were no angels..........a bullet in the head for informers, shot off duty RIC men, and plenty of civilians too. But he is the hero of FG still.

[agora]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

Collins was the defender of the will of the people. Like it or not the Dail voted for the treaty and the Dail was the representation of the people. Dev and his partners in crime refused to recognise the historic opportunity presented by the treaty. Instead of helping to defuse the crisis which arose out of the Four Courts situation they inflamed it and the country descended into civil war.
It was thanks to the actions and words of people like Dev and O'Connor that the prospect of a United Ireland was put back for at least another hundred years. The treaty was by no means a perfect document and there were many reasons to be dissatisified with it, but that was no justification for stabbing Ireland in the back as the irregulars did.
Collins may have done some bad things in his time (though in fairness most of the real Free State atrocities were committed after his murder) but in general he should be regarded as someone who was doing his best to defend Ireland's future chances of becoming a real republic, while the nutters on the anti-treaty side spouted holier than thou crap and went around destroying those chances.

[Rocky]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

Collins was the defender of the will of the people. Like it or not the Dail voted for the treaty and the Dail was the representation of the people. Dev and his partners in crime refused to recognise the historic opportunity presented by the treaty. Instead of helping to defuse the crisis which arose out of the Four Courts situation they inflamed it and the country descended into civil war.
It was thanks to the actions and words of people like Dev and O'Connor that the prospect of a United Ireland was put back for at least another hundred years. The treaty was by no means a perfect document and there were many reasons to be dissatisified with it, but that was no justification for stabbing Ireland in the back as the irregulars did.
Collins may have done some bad things in his time (though in fairness most of the real Free State atrocities were committed after his murder) but in general he should be regarded as someone who was doing his best to defend Ireland's future chances of becoming a real republic, while the nutters on the anti-treaty side spouted holier than thou crap and went around destroying those chances.

I agree with you. I was just pointing out why Shinners should hate Collins, if you go be their attitudes on other matters.

[captain]

The man who (albeit reluctantly) ordered the shelling of the four courts which started the war.

If O'Conor wasm't in the four courts there would have been no reason to shell it.

You can't lay the blame for the civil war on one man's shoulders

[agora]

I agree with you. I was just pointing out why Shinners should hate Collins, if you go be their attitudes on other matters.

But surely if Shinners have become mature enough to recognise Collins value, that is at least a step in the right direction (ie:away from Cloud Cuckoo Land), whatever their views on other matters.

[thegeneral]

You can't lay the blame for the civil war on one man's shoulders

That's true though many overlook that when it comes to Éaom de Valera.

[edifice.]

Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

Are they that easy to confuse?