Michael Collins

[Rocky]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

why should we hate him Rocky ? So that it can make FG'ers feel better that they have some sort of fetish in idolising him, despite the fact that even the briefest look at the mans life and his place in Irish history would indicate that he most likely would have nothing to do with FG

Can you imagine Micheal Collins take on Brian Hayes ? Or John Bruton ? or Gay Mitchell

Why not? He was good friends with Griffith and William T. Cosgrave and I doubt you consider them Republicans either.

Well I think I gave a good enough reason in my first post for Shinners to hate Collins, if you look at their attitudes concerning the troubles and the Civil War. How can you support a man Rock who used British guns to kill Irish men who were fighting for something that I'm sure you support?

Cosgrave was a fine Republican in his day Rocky, your obviously a bit low on irish history. And contrary to widespread FF belief, I think he was actually the last Commanding Officer to surrender during the 1916 Rising, and not Dev. If memory serves me correct, didn't he and Mulcahy make a stand out in Bettystown in Meath, the only unit outside Dublin to fight in 1916

All very true, but if you were to judge him on his actions after 1922 I doubt you think he is a fine Republican. What about Griffith was also a fine Republican? Yet Griffith was one of Collins best friends in SF at that time.

[Risteard]

Do any other [Provo] shinners find that some [Provo] people are totally all over the place on Michael Collins.

None more so than Gerry Adams.

[martin TYRONE]

Collins is the man who took British guns and used them to kill Irish people who just wanted to , go against the people’s will as the boys in 1916 did, and continue to fight for the Republic. Supporters of SF should hate Collins and call him a traitor, which they did until the film confused them all.

why should we hate him Rocky ? So that it can make FG'ers feel better that they have some sort of fetish in idolising him, despite the fact that even the briefest look at the mans life and his place in Irish history would indicate that he most likely would have nothing to do with FG

Can you imagine Micheal Collins take on Brian Hayes ? Or John Bruton ? or Gay Mitchell

Why not? He was good friends with Griffith and William T. Cosgrave and I doubt you consider them Republicans either.

Well I think I gave a good enough reason in my first post for Shinners to hate Collins, if you look at their attitudes concerning the troubles and the Civil War. How can you support a man Rock who used British guns to kill Irish men who were fighting for something that I'm sure you support?

Cosgrave was a fine Republican in his day Rocky, your obviously a bit low on irish history. And contrary to widespread FF belief, I think he was actually the last Commanding Officer to surrender during the 1916 Rising, and not Dev. If memory serves me correct, didn't he and Mulcahy make a stand out in Bettystown in Meath, the only unit outside Dublin to fight in 1916

All very true, but if you were to judge him on his actions after 1922 I doubt you think he is a fine Republican. What about Griffith was also a fine Republican? Yet Griffith was one of Collins best friends in SF at that time.

Cosgreave had a nervous breakdown while the first bloody Sunday in nov 1920 was taking place and he hid out in a church.

[ChrIreland]

Cosgrave was a fine Republican in his day Rocky, your obviously a bit low on irish history. And contrary to widespread FF belief, I think he was actually the last Commanding Officer to surrender during the 1916 Rising, and not Dev. If memory serves me correct, didn't he and Mulcahy make a stand out in Bettystown in Meath, the only unit outside Dublin to fight in 1916

Yes, he is to be respected as an Irishman and a Republican. My earlier post was not a criticism of Collins but merely to explain that he too had to resort to extreme measures in the War of Independence.

[Seabird]

I am in the process of reading the book "The Path To Freedom" by Michael Collins. I have also read "The Man Who Made Ireland; The Life and Death of Michael Collins" by Tim Pat Coogan and I too have seen the movie. While I pretend NOT to be an authority in Irish history nor politics, I feel I am far from ignorant on the subject either. I feel Collins was a good man who had the best interest of Ireland in his heart. Collins was a brilliant stategist and leader that LOVED Ireland. It shows in his writings. Dev was the snake in the grass with his own agenda and it was NOT a United Ireland. Once again ya'll only my humble opinion.

[DOD]

Lads I am talking about Michael Collins in relation to the Civil War and nothing else. I can understand shinners respecting him prior to the civil war and respecting him for arming the IRA in the North, it's just when I hear self professed Shinners condemning the men who shot him that gets my goat.

[DOD]

It is due to SF's position on Collins, as well as their equally despicable position on the killing of other Irish people over the years, that they will never EVER get my vote or those of many other people. And yes, I do consider myself a Republican, but one who respects the mandate of my neighbours and the right of all to live in peace.

But what position is it you think shinners take on him? Because if you think shinners have a negative view of him, I can tell you it is surprisingly positive. Myself I have a certain respect for Collins, and he wasn't the worst of them, I just think in recent times Shinners seem to forget what side he took in the civil war.

[Maeve]

I am in the process of reading the book "The Path To Freedom" by Michael Collins. I have also read "The Man Who Made Ireland; The Life and Death of Michael Collins" by Tim Pat Coogan and I too have seen the movie. While I pretend NOT to be an authority in Irish history nor politics, I feel I am far from ignorant on the subject either. I feel Collins was a good man who had the best interest of Ireland in his heart. Collins was a brilliant stategist and leader that LOVED Ireland. It shows in his writings. Dev was the snake in the grass with his own agenda and it was NOT a United Ireland. Once again ya'll only my humble opinion.

Both agreeing and disagreeing (slightly) with you--balance "The Man Who Made Ireland" with Coogan's book on DeV, "The Man Who Was Ireland". Both were trying to do the best for Ireland but had very, very different ideas of what constituted "best"...or even "Ireland."
Collins seems to have been a more straight-forward, what-you-see-is-what-you-get sort; DeV more complicated and yes, egotistical, but an amazing character and strong political figure. (Not saying "admirable", however. I still don't like him much)

Now donning my flame suit and turning to other posters--the idea that any group should "hate" a man who worked for Ireland the best he saw fit and has been dead for 80 years--I think that's the very sort of faction fighting that keeps Ireland fractured.

[Bogwarrior]

DOD, would an Anti GFA Republican be justified in shooting Adams, for signing the modern day "Treaty", and the murder of the other "O Connor"? Surely Collins used the same arguement as PSF today, ie. "The stepping stone" approach, and the crushing of militiant Republicanism. Can you see now why some PSFers like him?

[SPN]

I was talking to a guy last night who claimed he voted SF ... but he really drove me daft when talking about Michael Collins.

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He was on about how republicans were bastards to kill Collins, he was for Ireland and all that.

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The same guy said he accepted my point when I said Michael collins was on the Free State army so Anti-Treatyites were naturally going to try to shoot him during a civil war

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it's surprising how many Shinners are big into him, but don't condemn the side you would have supported for killing someone on the other side. The man who (albeit reluctantly) ordered the shelling of the four courts which started the war.

What a boatload of revisionist horse manure!

The scum in the 4 Courts broke with the democratically expressed will of the Irish people, and their descendants continue to steal our money.

The real pity is that more of them were not sent out on booby-trap removal details!