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  1. #11
    mac tíre mac tíre is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCaldwell View Post
    If the violence was futile, then, given the human suffering it inflicted, surely it follows that it would have been better if the killings and bombings had never been carried out?
    Hamburg. Darmstadt. etc.

    We agree.
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  2. #12
    DavidCaldwell DavidCaldwell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac tíre View Post
    Better,and easier, to say we should admit we have made mistakes, both British and Irish. That was the message and will be the message. We all hurt each other. Let us make it better. And that is obviously including the British, who have their own role to sort out.
    I am very happy with this formulation and I suspect McGuinness would have been too.
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  3. #13
    DavidCaldwell DavidCaldwell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by mac tíre View Post
    Hamburg. Darmstadt. etc.

    We agree.
    Absolutely (even if this is bad for politics.ie advertising revenue).
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  4. #14
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline

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    Of course he did.

    Twenty years of peace, against all the forces which would undermine it- Unionist intransigence, Dissidents, Tory bloody-mindedness, BREXIT etc etc.

    He held everything together.

    Neither you nor I, Mr Caldwell, will ever be faced with that degree of responsibility and therefore we can have no idea how we would discharge it.

    My first thought when MMG died was "Can we do this without him?"

    And then I realised, yes we can, because that is what he showed us. Over 20 years.
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  5. #15
    Nesuno Nesuno is offline
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    I hope you're right.
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  6. #16
    DavidCaldwell DavidCaldwell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    No.

    His movement from overt violence was not made willingly. There was no transformation on a road to Damascus, He only abandoned terrorism because the IRA had lost the war and he wanted to salvage what he could, both for his party and for himself.

    As for "current Republican emphasis on the importance of equality" people should realise that they are using 1984-speak when they talk of equality. We saw their equality from Conor Murphy, Gildernew and Ruane.
    I would argue that, while McGuinness was not ready to give apologies, this was because he felt apologies were inappropriate (because he or at least the people he represented believed that they were the more wronged and so did not need to apologise), rather than because he continued to believe that the violence was justified.

    If you would argue that Adams still believes the violence was justified, I would be unable to disagree. But McGuinness recognised that the killings could be seen as murder. I believe we should ponder the implications of that and recognise that sometimes it may be difficult to say sorry.

    Indeed, it may be that it is often that the more solid is one's own position, the easier it is to say sorry. It was relatively easy for Cameron to say sorry about Bloody Sunday in part because doing so did not in any significant way undermine the moral authority of the government - yes, it has its flaws, but it is a modern democracy with rule of law and checks and balances.
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  7. #17
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    I strongly disagree with your assumption that a Republican viewpoint must see McGuinness’ earlier actions as "justified".

    The turn the "provisionals" took following the '69 split went abominably far beyond using force in defense and even justified retaliation.

    That turn may have been justified for a very short period of time when the old IRA failed to protect the communities in their remit.

    But the continued and bloody adherence to this "turn", when the initial exigency passed, when all possibly adequate justification had passed, when extreme youth and naivety were not mitigating factors, was never ever justified by any viewpoint other than a crass, peasant-minded, murderous, idiot's viewpoint.

    The "atonement" is a separate matter. That atonement is the only factor any thinking person was ever interested in or gave credence to.
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  8. #18
    Ardillaun Ardillaun is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    No.

    His movement from overt violence was not made willingly. There was no transformation on a road to Damascus, He only abandoned terrorism because the IRA had lost the war and he wanted to salvage what he could, both for his party and for himself.

    As for "current Republican emphasis on the importance of equality" people should realise that they are using 1984-speak when they talk of equality. We saw their equality from Conor Murphy, Gildernew and Ruane.
    So kind of on that topic, Cruimh, what do you think about a United Ireland out there in County Londonderry which I am presuming is not ironic? It's (UI) been in the news recently quite a bit as something inevitable which we all better get used to. How are you getting ready?
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  9. #19
    DavidCaldwell DavidCaldwell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I strongly disagree with your assumption that a Republican viewpoint must see McGuinness’ earlier actions as "justified".
    I should have been more carefully in my wording. I would agree that, while some Republicans saw the PIRA campaign as justified, many (OIRA etc) did not. Indeed, it is very interesting to note the complexities of the fact that Sinn Fein's vote has been much higher after the renunciation of violence (25% and more) than it ever was during the violence (10-15%), suggesting that many current Sinn Fein supporters never agreed with the violence.
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  10. #20
    Mickeymac Mickeymac is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    Of course he did.

    Twenty years of peace, against all the forces which would undermine it- Unionist intransigence, Dissidents, Tory bloody-mindedness, BREXIT etc etc.

    He held everything together.

    Neither you nor I, Mr Caldwell, will ever be faced with that degree of responsibility and therefore we can have no idea how we would discharge it.

    My first thought when MMG died was "Can we do this without him?"

    And then I realised, yes we can, because that is what he showed us. Over 20 years.

    Best post I ever read Lady in quite some time.
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