Huge debt of gratitude to CJH!

[candid]

Never thought of it like this before but it seems that all of us in the PD's owe a huge debt of gratitude to Charles J. Haughey!

This from Kevin Myers today:

“Only great events create political parties, and this is one reason to acclaim the significance of the Haughey leadership: he was, in that sense, the greatest leader of Fianna Fail since its foundation…..little has been made of his truly great contribution to Irish history: the creation of the PDs”.....

.....“there was a restless stirring across the country for a new morality, one which was republican, but in an American way, and in more than one sense. This morality demanded that the State must guard its own authority: it must protect the rule of secular law and it must ensure that the market is free and open. This was the revolutionary philosophic trinity that lay at the heart of the PDs”......

......“The language of the PDs has since transformed the political vocabulary of Irish politics. All political parties, apart from the lunatics of Sinn Fein, essentially believe in low-taxation, free market economics”.
More than the PDs were born 20 years ago. So too was the piscin that grew into modern Ireland”.

[Libero]

Eh... today is Thursday 17th November. Didn't that Myers piece appear in the Irish Times a day or two ago?
Isn't he writing today some awful tripe about "nightgrinders"?

I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread and running home from the newsagents with the IT under their arm only to find the Irishman's Diary featuring a different topic altogether.

[Dee Four]

I don't like this reasoning.

Perhaps if the Taliban weren't so oppressive and didn't allow their country to be used as a training ground for terrorists Afghanistan wouldn't have held free and fair elections. I still would never be grateful to them.

Haughey and Fitzgerald's combined inability to save the country from debt, unemployment and emigration was a major factor in setting up the PDs.

[agora]

This argument is rather like thanking Hitler and Mussolini for the establishment of the European Communities, since it might not have happened (well not as soon anyway) without the impetus given by the desire to avoid other wars.

[CJH]

Haughey and Fitzgerald's combined inability to save the country from debt, unemployment and emigration was a major factor in setting up the PDs.

No it wasn't. O Malley's moumental arrogance and ego, who meant that he was unable to accept the democratically expressed wish of the FF parliamentary party, was what led to the founding of the PDs.

It's amazing the revisionism that the thatcherites are trying to get away with, with their anniversary and all. Look lads, you've been pretty successful, but sorry to say, it was Haughey (that terrible man) in 87 who liberates the country from

debt, unemployment and emigration

with the help of FG. The PDs and Dessie had sweet FA to do with it

[civic_critic]

I suspect the end of the cold war, the expansion of the telecommunications and computer industries and the wealth of goodwill amongst irish-american industrialists had more to do with our success (i.e the Celtic Tiger) than all of them.

I was going to throw in Schengen, but we weren't able to sign that because we share a border (the border) with the UK.

What we provided was english, education, grants and tax breaks. English was probably not that important as can be seen by the flight of FDI to Morrocco, Hungary, the Czech Republic and India.

Education, grants and tax breaks. Seems about it.

[mjcoughlan]

Haughey and Fitzgerald's combined inability to save the country from debt, unemployment and emigration was a major factor in setting up the PDs.

No it wasn't. O Malley's moumental arrogance and ego, who meant that he was unable to accept the democratically expressed wish of the FF parliamentary party, was what led to the founding of the PDs.

Des O'Malley was expelled from Fianna Fail for "conduct unbecoming", remember? In other words, Haughey didn't like the fact that Dessie wasn't a yes man.

It's amazing the revisionism that the thatcherites are trying to get away with, with their anniversary and all. Look lads, you've been pretty successful, but sorry to say, it was Haughey (that terrible man) in 87 who liberates the country from

[quote:2fc0m6ib]debt, unemployment and emigration

with the help of FG. The PDs and Dessie had sweet FA to do with it[/quote:2fc0m6ib]

Too simplistic a view. The celtic tiger was created by a lot of things that had nothing to do with government at all. But there has been contribution of government to the creation of the celtic tiger. Lower debt/GDP ratios were a must and some very brave decisions were taken by people in all the main parties to get this under control. Also lower taxation has helped matters greatly as well. For the 20 years that the PDs have been in existence, we've been in government for over half that time. And we were and are in a position to campaign within government for issues that are on the PD agenda. And just as FFers want us to take equal responsibility for the failings of government, it seems to me that they want to take all the credit for the economy.

[campbeca]

Of course mismanagement of the country in the form of CJH created further desire for a reforming party like the PDs but isn't that a bit like saying that the incompetance of the premiership in the 90s made Man U look good? Can't Man U/the PDs have been truly remarkable in their own right?

He did create a window with his 'eine duce, eine voce' management of FF but the PDs were formed due to other factors also such as economic mismanagement, excessive conservatism of the sensible partys and antiquated views of NI policy

[campbeca]

I suspect the end of the cold war, the expansion of the telecommunications and computer industries and the wealth of goodwill amongst irish-american industrialists had more to do with our success than all of them.

I was going to throw in Schengen, but we weren't able to sign that because we share a border (the border) with the UK.

What we provided was english, education, grants and tax breaks. English was probably not that important as can be seen by the flight of FDI to Morrocco, Hungary, the Czech Republic and India.

Education, grants and tax breaks. Seems about it.

In the first year of the PDs funding to the tune of 200,000 quid came from ordinary people donating money and 20,000 came from abroad/corporate donations. any idea that the PDs are funded from abroad/the business community are simply false

[civic_critic]

I suspect the end of the cold war, the expansion of the telecommunications and computer industries and the wealth of goodwill amongst irish-american industrialists had more to do with our success than all of them.

I was going to throw in Schengen, but we weren't able to sign that because we share a border (the border) with the UK.

What we provided was english, education, grants and tax breaks. English was probably not that important as can be seen by the flight of FDI to Morrocco, Hungary, the Czech Republic and India.

Education, grants and tax breaks. Seems about it.

In the first year of the PDs funding to the tune of 200,000 quid came from ordinary people donating money and 20,000 came from abroad/corporate donations. any idea that the PDs are funded from abroad/the business community are simply false

When I said "our success" I meant the success of the Irish economy, not the success of the Progressive Democrats. Perish the thought that I would ever say "our" in the same sentence as "Progressive Democrats". One thing I did credit the PDs with some years ago was the introduction of a level of intellectualism and of ideas into irish politics. Such credit has long since evaporated.