List of principles for a new Irish political movement

[lying eyes]

Sorry you can forget that list. Principles and politics, would blend like water and oil.

[Nemesiscorporation]

There is certainly a lot of talk on p.ie these days about new political parties and all that so the last time some of us were in a kind Irish political webchat thing - which you can see in this writers signature - we did our best to come up with a list of principles that we think might be used by a new Irish poltical movement. (I want to make it clear though that many people who come to said chat would probably wish to put the emphasis on different points, there is a wide variety of opinions represented there actually.) So here it is anyway if people here would like to have a go at it!

You might ask whats the point of all this, well at least it shows, in my opinion anyway, that the basic principles can usually be agreed easily enough by any group of sincere Irish activists, and in fact that all this left/right talk, and the kaliedescope of isms that people pull from abroad, often just artificially divide people and add an unnecessary layer of waffle and theory on top of a political movement.

From what I have seen on patriot pie it is all right wing with a serious hint of right wing catholic anti-women ideas and no real input from centrist or left.

Please prove me wrong.

1. We feel that nationalism - a feeling of pride, shared history, collective endeavour, mutual security, and togetherness in a country - is a force for good and we strongly feel that Ireland should remain independent and in so far as it isn't it should strive to achieve independence. In particular we feel it should leave the EU and any other over powerful supra-national organisation which strives to get in the way of Irish peopl e deciding their own destiny within the island. We also feel that Ireland's natural resources, including oil and gas, should not be sequestered by shady deals involving huge multinational organisations and indeed we feel that our economic destiny is best served by focusing on supporting the indigenous population working in native owned enterprises.
This aim of protecting Irish sovereignty and independence also applies, we think, to the question of immigration. We are of the view that uncontrolled immigration of very large numbers of people with no prior connection to Ireland or its Diaspora, as has occurred in the last few years, is not healthy to the long term cohesion of Irish society or fair to the hard pressed Irish taxpayer or job seeker. We feel therefore that it should be curtailed with an exception made for people of Irish ethnicity due to the sincere attachment many of whom feel for Ireland.

You wish Ireland to leave the EU and I assume by extension the Euro.

As that would wipe out manufacturing and the finance sector in Ireland, creating massive unemployment, can you give a sane reason for this?

Also if unemployed is doubled overnight due to your actions, how do you intend to finance the country?

2. We stand against the current over hyped wave of anti-clericalism washing across Ireland and instead are of the view that traditional Christian principles are a great support, and indeed a necessity, for an harmonious society. The ten commandments - and with it those groups that teach and advocate these commandments -, for example, which encourage people to tell the truth and settle in sincere and strong family structures etc, are as positive an influence on society in this era as much as in any other.

Christian principles.

So as an athesist, would I be welcome in your new christian Ireland?

Also is that for any particular brand of christian or all of them?

3. We reject the outdated left/right labels as all too often just artificial tools used to label and then divide the small number of sincere Irish political activists. But from what is perceived to be the 'right wing' we take the spirit of self reliance, suspicion of government power and control and reaffirmation of civil liberties; and from the 'left' we take the concern to focus on the betterment or protection of all people in society, young and old, men and women, rich and poor, the student and the banker, and the sense that making money for its own sake should never be hyped as legitimately the sole aim of individuals or society at large, alongwith the sense of suspicion of US foreign policy and some giant multinational corporations, like Shell in Mayo, and attachment to Irish neutrality.
How to achieve that aforementioned betterment we leave to the individual issues and circumstances but would hope that well directed private enterprise could provide the means to assist these sectors and would only favour a state controlled solution where the former is unavailable or where well recognised market failures occur.
We also feel that public policy should aim towards a general economic fairness to all citizens, and in the current era this means that we feel that the inflated salaries many people in the senior ranks of the Irish state pay themseleves, should come down dramatically, to somewhere close to the level that many Irish taxpayers have to struggle with.

Can you please explain how you would get industry to go along with this?

4. We support the traditional Civil Liberties which are often contained in old English Common Law principles that are under attack in Ireland today, particularly from the EU. These include the right of:
- 'Trial by Jury', under attack from the EU arrest warrants which are now being used against people who are not being charged under Irish law, and from the abolition of the 'Double Jeopardy' right;
- 'Innocence until Proven Guilty', which is in practice being eroded by the massive use of Orwellian state 'vetting' and registration procedures used against citizens applying for work, even as volunteers, all across Ireland;
- 'Fair Use', the right to copy and reproduce information of use to the general public and academics etc, which is under attack from over hyped - and generally EU inspired - anti-piracy and copyright laws;
- and the right to 'Freedom of Speech', which is continually being undermined psychologically by the use of often false PC standards of morality and via various legal excuses (including clearly inaccurate and manipulative use of sub iudice and libel laws) etc etc.

You actually opose vetting of people who work with children and vulnerable adults. That is an extremely dangerous position to have, which I would definately take a strong stand against regardless of ideology.

Anti-piracy laws all over Europe are actually US inspired and are driven by US based lobbyists.

What are PC standards of morality?

5. We feel that the current era is characterised by massive systemic failures of the media and other groups to inform truthfully the general public on many of the most important issues effecting society. Caused in part by giant corporations controlling and dishonestly manipulating the information flow through huge media conglomerates, in part by self serving manipulation of the information controlled by governments and its security apparatus, and in part by a herd like and unthoughtful mentality in many academic institutions, this atmosphere has given rise to large numbers of people dismissing as 'conspiracy theories' facts that need to be taken seriously. This includes disturbing details about the events of 9-11 and the revelations about security force control of paramilitary groups - on both sides - during the. Troubles in the North of Ireland, on Climate Change and the deleterious effects of wind farms, the implications of poisonous chemicals being added to the water supply in Ireland, and the question of whether or not Occult groups or other secretive groupings wield a disproportionate influence on society and in particular in central banking - including the US Federal Reserve Board and the ECB - and over current Irish political leaders and even online Irish political fora.

Regarding occcult Groups. What are you talking about?

Which Irish political leaders are under the influence of the secretive groupings, US Federal Reserve Board and ECB?

Who are these secretive groupings you allege have influence and over who do they wield influence?

6. We feel that Ireland as a country is only liable to pay back legitimately incurred national debts, and that the debts incurred as a result of the mysterious and precipitous bank guarantee, as a result of NAMA, and as a result of EU and euro pressure and alleged 'bailouts', are most definitely not legitimate.

Every irish political party states that until they get into power.

What reason can you give that would make anyone believe you would be any different?

7. While tax needs to be collected in some form we reject the model of income tax and would abolish it. The reason is that this tax uniquely gives rise to massive state surveillance over the citizens in society, and huge unnecessary and expensive bureaucracy both on the part of the state collecting the tax and the citizen paying it.

You intend to get rid of income tax. A very bold move.

If you get rid of income tax, how do you intend to fund the following?

1. Healthcare.

2. Infrastucture.

3. Unemployment benefit.

4. Primary, secondary and tertiary education.

5. Research and Development.

6. Gardai.

7. Courts.

8. Military.

9. Disability services.

Well that's it and hopefully it will provoke some discussion if nothing else. Don't forget if you are interested you can join the chat yourself next Friday at 10pm Irish time.

By the time I assume you mean patriot pie. If so you should state that and give a link to that discussion.


Where does your new party stand on the following?

1. Septic tank charge.

2. Property taxation.

3. A womans right to choose.

4. Contraception.

5. Womens rights.

6. Equality legislation.

7. Disability rights and funding for disability servies

8. childrens rights.

9. Gay and transsexual rights.

10. Value added Tax.

11. As you intend to remove income tax, what will you replace it with.

12. Corporation Tax.

13. State owned companies.

[scolairebocht]

Sorry Cato, its here at 10pm on Friday:
Irish Opposition Groups - Chat Room .
You don't have to register on that site to join the chat, you can just go to that direct link, put in a made up username, and fire away. But if you register you get a special benefit in that you can change the skin and then read the site properly! because otherwise its in the historic Irish script. You might as well come and have your say Clanrickard, everybody has something to contribute I'd say, even if it is criticism....

I see the reference to ten commandments has infuriated some, but surely the point made there has some validity? If you teach people not to lie, to be faithful to spouses and parents etc, not to kill, not steal etc etc then you are spreading around a few good principles that make society better for all of us to live in? The abscence of sentiments like these are not so nice to witness in practice, I submit, and also I think people underestimate the importance of these principles in the success of the west in general, as pointed out here by a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences:

"One of the things we were asked to look into was what accounted for the success, in fact, the pre- eminence of the West all over the world.
We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system.

But in the past twenty years, we have realised that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this.”
(The Iona Institute | 03 Mar 11 Christianity the reason for West's success, say the Chinese )

But I agree nonethless that maybe too heavy duty an emphasis on religion can put people off in an unnecessary way. I suppose ultimately these streams operate in their own space, a totally theocratic party, or society of course, creates its own problems maybe. But nonetheless surely a new Irish political movement should have a view on these overall questions, which are hyped to the gills in the media right now, and I think standing over those kind of traditional Christian principles is worth stating, because they do make a lot of sense and are important and helpful to society.

[stringjack]

Where does your new party stand on the following?

1. Septic tank charge.

2. Property taxation.

3. A womans right to choose.

4. Contraception.

5. Womens rights.

6. Equality legislation.

7. Disability rights and funding for disability servies

8. childrens rights.

9. Gay and transsexual rights.

10. Value added Tax.

11. As you intend to remove income tax, what will you replace it with.

12. Corporation Tax.

13. State owned companies.

You're asking the wrong questions. I want to know where they stand on things like:

1. Funding for the Garda Ombudsman

2. The Rakorski/Galactic Logos controversy

3. The ability of water to lower my annual heating bill

4. The Thule Society

5. Freemasonry, for or against

6. Externalization of the Hierarchy

7. Genetically modified bees (for or against)

[Tawdy]

Sorry Cato, its here at 10pm on Friday:
Irish Opposition Groups - Chat Room .
You don't have to register on that site to join the chat, you can just go to that direct link, put in a made up username, and fire away. But if you register you get a special benefit in that you can change the skin and then read the site properly! because otherwise its in the historic Irish script. You might as well come and have your say Clanrickard, everybody has something to contribute I'd say, even if it is criticism....

I see the reference to ten commandments has infuriated some, but surely the point made there has some validity? If you teach people not to lie, to be faithful to spouses and parents etc, not to kill, not steal etc etc then you are spreading around a few good principles that make society better for all of us to live in? The abscence of sentiments like these are not so nice to witness in practice, I submit, and also I think people underestimate the importance of these principles in the success of the west in general, as pointed out here by a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences:


But I agree nonethless that maybe too heavy duty an emphasis on religion can put people off in an unnecessary way. I suppose ultimately these streams operate in their own space, a totally theocratic party, or society of course, creates its own problems maybe. But nonetheless surely a new Irish political movement should have a view on these overall questions, which are hyped to the gills in the media right now, and I think standing over those kind of traditional Christian principles is worth stating, because they do make a lot of sense and are important and helpful to society.

Is this sean gallagher as a born again entreprenooooor!

[Nemesiscorporation]

You're asking the wrong questions. I want to know where they stand on things like:

I don't expect any serious attempt to answer my questions from the OP. He is most likely far to reactionary to answer questions from a mere woman.

1. Funding for the Garda Ombudsman

That is beyond fantasy. Seriously, you should not ask questiuons like that in case they put you in a rubber room

2. The Rakorski/Galactic Logos controversy

Personally I am more inclined to stay off sides on that one and go with the Schwarz.

3. The ability of water to lower my annual heating bill

That I would like to read an answer to

4. The Thule Society

See: Iron Sky: Watch the New Teaser!

5. Freemasonry, for or against

They have to be for the Freemasons. Most of them buy a round if they get into a discussion in the pub. I used to drink in Whites Tavern in Belfast. The Freemasons place used to be just across the street from Whites Tavern. I remember seeing them staggering out of there that pissed they could barely order a taxi. I could imagine them trying to run anything

6. Externalization of the Hierarchy

I don't even know what that means

7. Genetically modified bees (for or against)

A very good question.

Judging by there reactionary ideology, they most like oppose genetically modified bees as well as the birds and bees getting along

[Nemesiscorporation]

Is this sean gallagher as a born again entreprenooooor!

When I first read that, I thought it was Sean Gallagher taking the piss

[drummed]

I gave up after the first two!

I lost interest after the classic "there certainly is a lot of talk" at the start. Talk is right, thats all is happening.
Anyway you missed the best bit at the end which says we will abolish income tax. If you do read it all you can actually feel the writer losing all grasp of reality as the lecture proceeds.
Mad as a March hare

[Tawdy]

When I first read that, I thought it was Sean Gallagher taking the piss

Great minds and all that.

[drummed]

The Spinelli EU.
In September 2010 a new EU group was launched, called the Spinelli Group. It aims replacing nationalism with European federalism. Led initially by Belgian Guy Verhofstadt and by German French Jewish politician Daniel Cohn-Bendit, manyl of its growing members are from the European far left.
The group is influenced by Altiero Spinelli, 1907-1986, an Italian Communist, founder of the European federalist movement and eventually a member of the European Parliament.
A Communist who promoted the destruction of the nation state and the denial of racial, religious and cultural belonging, he called for the formation of a world government but upon gaining power within the emerging EU he settled for a concept he called Eurocommunism. Alongside Monet and Schumann he is considered one of the main founders of the EU and the main house of the EU is named after him.
Spinelli believed if terms like communism were replaced by federalism, without connections to blood, destruction and terror then it would be an easier sell. However it would have the same aim; the destruction of the nations states of Europe and the shearing away of traditions. He stated that only then could a new Europe emerge, something that would look exactly like the entity which emerged in the USSR decades earlier but which failed and crashed at the start of the 1990s.
At the launch of the group in 2010 Mr Verhofstadt clarified this ideology by explained that “resorting to national sovereignties leads to political dead-ends. Each time that there is a conflict between the national interest and the European interest, the latter should prevail”. This group has since grown and is now a key player in the new Europe, they are busy drawing up what in essence is the original Eurocommunism of Spinelli; a dogmatic Communistic hidden ideology beyond all and any reach, question or sanction.
One more referendum may bring it to fruition!

“Though no one knows what a race is, and the most elementary notions of history emphasize the absurdity of the statement, physiologists are required to believe, demonstrate and convince that people belong to a chosen race”.
“The question which must be resolved first, failing which progress is but mere appearance, is definitive abolition of division of Europe into national, sovereign States”.
“The constitution of a steady federal State, that will have an European armed service instead of national armies at its disposal”. *** Its origins are here.
“In order to respond to our needs, the European revolution must be socialist.”.
“Private property must be abolished, limited, corrected, extended: according to the different situations and not according to principle. This guideline is easily inserted into the process of forming a European economic life”.
“We can this way think of an agrarian reform by distributing the lands directly to farmers, the number of land-owners is going to increase enormously”.
“Only those who have identified and accepted the European revolution as the principle purpose in their lives are to be recruited into the movement”.
From the writings of Altiero Spinelli, 1907-1986, now EU influence No1.

Not that damn Spinelli group again! Hes been going around all day plastering this rubbish all over every thread.
Give me strenght. Do we really have citizens who beleive this junk.
I mean seriously??????????