List of principles for a new Irish political movement

[scolairebocht]

Speaking for myself I have no time for Ayn Rand (an atheist that does glorify the pursuit of money for its own sake) or Hitler.

The Volunteer
"Thats perfect.

except for that wee bit on immigration, instead of accepting unlimited numbers or closing doors completely, Irish s/Gaelichould be made the national language and taught in schools, and then support programs should be set up for seasonal migrant workers and conflict refugees. that way the people that need to come here for economic or political reasons can get support untill the conflict in question dies down, and the ones that do stay learn what the native language culture is etc."

Go raibh maith agat, good to see you agree with most of it anyway and I just thought I'd better reply, belatedly says you!

The way I look at it take a simple scenario: say a politician stands up at a meeting and brags about a particular project, say the motorway in Meath or a development at Dublin airport for example, and promises that there will be 2,000 jobs created directly and so many downstream etc. So you are persuaded of the merits of this and then vote for him but a few years down the line you discover that the contract was handed to some non Irish firm and, more particularly, the vast majority of the jobs never went to Irish people anyway.

Now first of all lets be clear, this is a practical reality of modern Irish life, in fact you should be sceptical and ask a few hard questions of a given politician in those circumstances because a remarkable amount of the time they are not refering to Irish jobs, as such, at all and if you don't like this then you should say so and demand that these jobs should be earmarked for Irish people (and maybe even local Irish people specifically). That in a way is all the OP is saying, and if you think about it it surely is reasonable enough to say this.

But why anyway? Why do we say that Irish people are entitled to say this? What is the underlying philosophy anyway? Well of course its nationalism, as pointed out in the OP. So (to continue asking my stupid questions here!) what is nationalism exactly?

Well tradionally it was always looked upon as a kind of wider family i.e. it works like a family only bigger, hence the old Latin word 'patria' (from which patriotism etc) dervied from the Latin for father: 'pater'. So to ask what the idea behind nationalism is we should first ask whats the idea behind the family. Well the idea obviously is that biological, and indeed genetic ties, between people, allied to their history of growing up together and all that - love, if you want the soap opera way of phrasing it! - creates a kind mutual protection society which in turn makes its easier for people to live in the world, especially young people growing up and older people being looked after etc. So its just a good blanket of protection around people which is cemented and made easier by the fact that the family are alike, biologically, and so understand each other better and have a greater affinity to each other than they have to outsiders.

Incidentally, if you think about it, the family structure only hangs together properly if it discriminates against outsiders on occasion. So say you were going into a hospital to give a few grapes and whatever to your father who is there and you pass by all these sad cases as you go in and the question is do you hand over your grapes and visit only them and ignore your father? Why not? They are flesh and blood like you and I and are suffering badly, maybe worse than your father, so shouldn't human feeling lead you to only heed them? But no that isn't right, as they say charity begins at home and blood is thicker than water, the right, the moral, the proper course is to see to your father first, because it is important and right to keep families together in the first instance like this.

The same thing is true then of your wider patria, I respectfully submit, you have the same shared history and biological/genetic bond, which is not a bad thing, its good to feel physically related to the people you have to bond with a bit in your patria because its easier to relate to them - although its never going to be the case that all people in your patria will be like that nonetheless its helpful in so far as it is true -, to understand them etc, and similarly you cannot hold this wider family, the patria, together without on occasion putting them first and not outsiders.

Charity begins at home there too, its not right for people to go on and on about the starving people of Africa etc and all the time ignore the poor fella homeless in Ireland or having to emigrate. And no its not true that this is alleviated always in Ireland through social welfare and the people involved are not just lazy etc, many many people are now falling through the holes of the welfare system, designedly so because there is no money in the kitty and so the state is ramping up all kinds of bureaucratic snares to deny people any asistance and this process will only get worse. Meanwhile if jobs were properly allocated in their own home country, and housing as well maybe, then they might be able to stay and survive in Ireland and thats what fair minded and decent Irish people should try and fight for. And they cannot continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is that so much employment etc is going to non Irish people?

Sorry to ramble on about this but I just thought it might be worthwhile to go back to first principles about what is meant by nationalism, and hence the right of an Irish state to look after Irish people in the first instance.

[IrishTom]

There is certainly a lot of talk on p.ie these days about new political parties and all that so the last time some of us were in a kind Irish political webchat thing - which you can see in this writers signature - we did our best to come up with a list of principles that we think might be used by a new Irish poltical movement. (I want to make it clear though that many people who come to said chat would probably wish to put the emphasis on different points, there is a wide variety of opinions represented there actually.) So here it is anyway if people here would like to have a go at it!

You might ask whats the point of all this, well at least it shows, in my opinion anyway, that the basic principles can usually be agreed easily enough by any group of sincere Irish activists, and in fact that all this left/right talk, and the kaliedescope of isms that people pull from abroad, often just artificially divide people and add an unnecessary layer of waffle and theory on top of a political movement.

1. We feel that nationalism - a feeling of pride, shared history, collective endeavour, mutual security, and togetherness in a country - is a force for good and we strongly feel that Ireland should remain independent and in so far as it isn't it should strive to achieve independence. In particular we feel it should leave the EU and any other over powerful supra-national organisation which strives to get in the way of Irish peopl e deciding their own destiny within the island. We also feel that Ireland's natural resources, including oil and gas, should not be sequestered by shady deals involving huge multinational organisations and indeed we feel that our economic destiny is best served by focusing on supporting the indigenous population working in native owned enterprises.
This aim of protecting Irish sovereignty and independence also applies, we think, to the question of immigration. We are of the view that uncontrolled immigration of very large numbers of people with no prior connection to Ireland or its Diaspora, as has occurred in the last few years, is not healthy to the long term cohesion of Irish society or fair to the hard pressed Irish taxpayer or job seeker. We feel therefore that it should be curtailed with an exception made for people of Irish ethnicity due to the sincere attachment many of whom feel for Ireland.

2. We stand against the current over hyped wave of anti-clericalism washing across Ireland and instead are of the view that traditional Christian principles are a great support, and indeed a necessity, for an harmonious society. The ten commandments - and with it those groups that teach and advocate these commandments -, for example, which encourage people to tell the truth and settle in sincere and strong family structures etc, are as positive an influence on society in this era as much as in any other.

3. We reject the outdated left/right labels as all too often just artificial tools used to label and then divide the small number of sincere Irish political activists. But from what is perceived to be the 'right wing' we take the spirit of self reliance, suspicion of government power and control and reaffirmation of civil liberties; and from the 'left' we take the concern to focus on the betterment or protection of all people in society, young and old, men and women, rich and poor, the student and the banker, and the sense that making money for its own sake should never be hyped as legitimately the sole aim of individuals or society at large, alongwith the sense of suspicion of US foreign policy and some giant multinational corporations, like Shell in Mayo, and attachment to Irish neutrality.
How to achieve that aforementioned betterment we leave to the individual issues and circumstances but would hope that well directed private enterprise could provide the means to assist these sectors and would only favour a state controlled solution where the former is unavailable or where well recognised market failures occur.
We also feel that public policy should aim towards a general economic fairness to all citizens, and in the current era this means that we feel that the inflated salaries many people in the senior ranks of the Irish state pay themseleves, should come down dramatically, to somewhere close to the level that many Irish taxpayers have to struggle with.

4. We support the traditional Civil Liberties which are often contained in old English Common Law principles that are under attack in Ireland today, particularly from the EU. These include the right of:
- 'Trial by Jury', under attack from the EU arrest warrants which are now being used against people who are not being charged under Irish law, and from the abolition of the 'Double Jeopardy' right;
- 'Innocence until Proven Guilty', which is in practice being eroded by the massive use of Orwellian state 'vetting' and registration procedures used against citizens applying for work, even as volunteers, all across Ireland;
- 'Fair Use', the right to copy and reproduce information of use to the general public and academics etc, which is under attack from over hyped - and generally EU inspired - anti-piracy and copyright laws;
- and the right to 'Freedom of Speech', which is continually being undermined psychologically by the use of often false PC standards of morality and via various legal excuses (including clearly inaccurate and manipulative use of sub iudice and libel laws) etc etc.

5. We feel that the current era is characterised by massive systemic failures of the media and other groups to inform truthfully the general public on many of the most important issues effecting society. Caused in part by giant corporations controlling and dishonestly manipulating the information flow through huge media conglomerates, in part by self serving manipulation of the information controlled by governments and its security apparatus, and in part by a herd like and unthoughtful mentality in many academic institutions, this atmosphere has given rise to large numbers of people dismissing as 'conspiracy theories' facts that need to be taken seriously. This includes disturbing details about the events of 9-11 and the revelations about security force control of paramilitary groups - on both sides - during the. Troubles in the North of Ireland, on Climate Change and the deleterious effects of wind farms, the implications of poisonous chemicals being added to the water supply in Ireland, and the question of whether or not Occult groups or other secretive groupings wield a disproportionate influence on society and in particular in central banking - including the US Federal Reserve Board and the ECB - and over current Irish political leaders and even online Irish political fora.

6. We feel that Ireland as a country is only liable to pay back legitimately incurred national debts, and that the debts incurred as a result of the mysterious and precipitous bank guarantee, as a result of NAMA, and as a result of EU and euro pressure and alleged 'bailouts', are most definitely not legitimate.

7. While tax needs to be collected in some form we reject the model of income tax and would abolish it. The reason is that this tax uniquely gives rise to massive state surveillance over the citizens in society, and huge unnecessary and expensive bureaucracy both on the part of the state collecting the tax and the citizen paying it.

Well that's it and hopefully it will provoke some discussion if nothing else. Don't forget if you are interested you can join the chat yourself next Friday at 10pm Irish time.

Fair play to you putting the effort in, but what you have written although well meaning lacks depth and realism.
The policies you speak are not economically viable.

Your reference to religion is irrelevant to politics, I say that as an avowed committed Christian, it would seem you are attempting to put forward some weird connection between Nationalism and Religion and that is a non runner I'm afraid, not that there is anything wrong with Nationalism, there is not, I am a Nationalist myself but to try and tie it up with religion is immature and irrelevant.

These are not attacks n you personally, just some constructive criticism, there is some good stuff there though but it needs a lot of work if it is ever going to attract popular support in Ireland.

[scolairebocht]

I am just trying to articulate a set of principles, nationalism and religion are traditionally of sufficient importance to Irish people to warrant a place on such a list, I'd say anyway.

I am just a bit confused though because I thought somewhere else you said you were atheist or? Doesn't matter anyway obviously, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

[IrishTom]

I am just trying to articulate a set of principles, nationalism and religion are traditionally of sufficient importance to Irish people to warrant a place on such a list, I'd say anyway.

I am just a bit confused though because I thought somewhere else you said you were atheist or? Doesn't matter anyway obviously, everybody is entitled to their opinion.

I never said I was an atheist, in fact I have been debating atheists all day on the "can God be categorised" thread.

I can assure you, there is no appetite for a party spouting religious preference.
It will only serve to alienate any group trying such a thing, I admire what you are doing and urge you to continue, but maybe refine the principles and keep them concise, to the point and relative. I was active on patriot pie until Twin Towers banned me for demanding to know who was behind the site and why was there so much heel dragging regards party formation. Beware of who you trust, politics is a dirty game.

[scolairebocht]

Oh right I understand, I could have sworn you said that somewhere which is why it surprises me that you would describe yourself as an "avowed committed Christian", but it doesn't matter anyway.

A "party spouting religious preference" is one thing but surely everybody would agree that religious issues are now up there in lights in terms of public policy, in the sense that it seems that the government is following a pretty unashamed antiCatholic agenda. Many people are saying that now on this site, even people who, as far as I can see, are not particularly religious? This is coming into some heavy political issues, like our embassies and the small schools, which seem to be considered uneconomic if the managment of them is no longer to be the volunteer labour of the Catholic priest, and also the motions for the Labour Party conference etc etc. Well then if these are big political issues, as they are, then why not comment on them in a set of principles for a political party? If you think this anti-clerical wave has gone too far, and actually many people do, then why can you not say so? Thats pretty much what the OP is saying I think, and I don't think its democratic to claim that its somehow always wrong to include such a notion on a political platform.

In otherwords if its ok for many modern political parties to include a kind of anticlerical stance in their platform is it not ok to include the opposite if you want to? Thats politics then, otherwise you are giving in to a kind of dictatorship of thought, you are not allowing the opposite point of view to get a fair hearing...

[LouBystander]

The principles for a new Irish political movement should be - DEMOCRACY, first and foremost.

To talk of anything else is a waste of time. The political system at present denies the rights of the citizens - the basic rights - those rights which denote a true democracy ie the ability of the citizens to change that very political system by which they are ruled and controlled, without any intereference from, or prevention by, the politicians.

The political parties OWN the present political 'arrangement' because of the Constitution, which gives the citizens 'control' for approximately 1 minute every 5 years or so. The foundation for all other principles must be based and depend on that first principle - freedom of the citizens.

I have documented the sorry saga of just how undemocratic our present political system is, at (link not allowed) an Irish (ie) web site all about each and every IrishCitizen (no spaces). It makes depressing reading but will keep you out of the pub (though maybe I should say - it'll put a thirst on you!)

Everything in the Nation, in effect, is built upon the fundamental political structure which is in place and a dysfunctional one prevents any real principles, benefitting the citizens, from being able to come to fruition. We need to begin . . . at the beginning, the most basic principle.

[scolairebocht]

On the day thats in it I would just like to, on behalf of this small group, to applaud the efforts of the Occupy group to try and bring an urgency to the Irish political class to address the huge problems we now face. I think they conducted themselves perfectly honourably and, as they articulated, it is much better for Irish people to protest like this instead of just emigrating without a fight. I hope those groups stick together and meet up with other sincere activists around Ireland and continue the fight.