Democratic Revolution ?

[Martin75]

Truth or Lies, fair play to you - I am up for it; we would need a number to attend, I guess; I haven't looked beyond this thread, I am afraid

[Cormac O Conachur]

Truth or lies/Martin 75 and other likeminded people
Taking over Labour and changing their ethos to a new regime is easier said than done, but its somewhere to start as a focal point I guess.

I still think that you need a reformation type charachter, to give the reform required momentum. Eamon Gilmore, while he seems to have the ear of the public, he is not being too constructive in his contributions, and to my mind populist. Labour have had very fine and able politicians down through the years but would they be willing to do what is necessary to get the country to itd feet again. Its a matter of putting the party on the line, go for bust, and those on the inside may not have the appetite for such a risky reform.

There is however, many good people in FF and FG, the younger crowd who might flock to a winning team if the message was right and the package could be sold behind a charismatic leader.
The plan should be short, 5 years to reform, and then let it revise its policy to become more stable or whatever thereafter.
What we need is reform, constituitional and political reform and that means the current mould has to be smashed to pieces. People benefitting from the current mould will suffer, they are in power and will need to be overcome.

I think you have a rump in FF called the lemass group, you have FG deputies , who railed against Enda Kenny, ( who i have good time for as he is the only politician i know that questioned the usefullness of the Seanad) and I'm sure those in SF who are dissillusioned with their anti everything position. See Theresa Ferris comments over a year ago, she seemed a sensible lady eager to get SF more mainstream.
Many might dislike SF, but you can't deny that they love Ireland and are passionate in its developement and are outsiders with respect to the establishment.

So the new party that i would vote for is a party that will deliver reform in the political system first and foremost,( deliberately break the cosy linkage that has clogged up the system between the banks, unions, government, state bodies) have centralist economic policies promoting our competiveness internationally, have social programmes to protect the weakest in society while doing so efficiently and fairly, and have a tax structure to deliver these reforms sustainably.

There is a problem in reality that FG and Labour will walk into Government without even having to propose drastic reform, and thus they have no incentive to be imaginative or reformist. In ways perhaps joining these parties would be a policy that would end up in failure and frustration.
A new party, with established politicians picked from the spectrum of parties might be more successful. It could be like a nucleur reaction, once the critical mass is achieved the explosion propogates itself.

What can be done to get this critical mass?

[truth or lies]

Cormac O Conachar/Martin75 & Others,

It will take time effort and some considerable work to achieve this critical mass. However with the correct strategy and a realistic timeframe, a start at least can be made.

Critical mass usually occurs after a tipping point and it is possible we are closer to this tipping point than the mainstream media or current political class realise. We therefore need a catalyst to push the ball over the top, after this point, if the message is credible, we won't have to sell this, this will sell itself.

This is not like any other time in our recent history and parallels to the establishment of the PD's are completely inappropriate, this will be, if it might possibly work, a democratic revolution in the purest sense. It’s also important to remember that sections of the main stream media, politicians and political parties monitor sites like this and will no doubt be doubled in laughter at the content of this threat and the apparently naive opinions expressed herein and we must be mindful of this. These people are absolute establishment and institutionally arrogant.

If we accept that many of the people we would need to engage are young, many unemployed and living at home or renting and young couple’s with huge property debt and negative equity or older, mainly employed and home owners, but badly effected by failed property and other failing investments, then we need to find a common thread with both groups and encourage participation. Both groups will be embarrassed by their predicament and the younger group will feel powerless outside their peers and perhaps incorrectly assume they do not posses the requisite skill to effectively communicate their frustration and anger. While the other group will be embarrassed that they allowed desire for financial betterment and plain old fashioned greed to cloud otherwise sound judgement and now find themselves in or facing middle or old age with huge debt and mediocre prospects at best.

Within both groups is the critical mass needed to achieve the tipping point. Both groups also have the necessary skill to make a difference especially the older group many of whom are experienced parents, union members, business managers, self employed and professionals, not to mention active members of community and sporting organisations. While almost all of the younger generation be they former construction workers or unemployed graduates have a sound general education and a high degree of proficency in modern communication methods and social media. Social media is a hugely important messaging format in today’s society (ask Simon Coveney and Brian Cowen...)

In conclusion and as I've suggested previously, it is time to stop typing and start acting and some direct discussions are needed to move this process forward.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man or woman, any body out there ??

[Martin75]

Well, it’s tough, alright. I know I am certainly not the man. I have a job, a wife and young child. I am sure I can see what is happening and how to best progress from now in a direction that would be much better for the Ireland of 2020 and by extrapolation thereafter. If I had the time to write all aspects of this down and have someone else deliver it publicly and politically then at this point in Ireland's struggling course I would gladly.
I will try to summarise the central concept in a couple of sentences, and maybe someone who will lead stand up and be a focal point for those who wish to progress may be in some way influenced.

I think that in our analysis of economics and society there is a massive positive being largely overlooked. I discuss this without reference, obviously, to a whole range of other issues, mostly ethical in nature. The central concept is our understanding of technology and its role in economics.
Economics is certainly most complicated in almost all forms of discussion, but like the law it is a human construct - or at least a school of study that reflects an area that is a human construct.
So take me, a middle or low-middle income individual. Now compare me with a very righ man of 1910. Aside the social reflections, which one of us is actually better off. Well in terms of food, nutrition, health, transport possibilities, leisure time pursuits, or nearly any other measure you would like - I win.
So, how is that. In terms of allowing for inflation - this guy has a lot more money than I. This shows us that beneath economics is stuff!!!. Call it anything you want but it is technological development and increased innovation in services, higher level of organisation, productivity, plus accumulated systems knowledge etc. etc.
Of this we want more, clearly. One can see that, in fact, if you had a society operating at some non-human optimum, then surely we could be much more comfortable than we are. An issue in recent century or so has been the increasing rate of really significant technological advance. The marketplace, as it is will suffer herd mentality and over enthuse and then counterbalance by over panicking and in the process taking two steps forward and one and a half back, and hurting those on lower incomes and welfare pretty much throughout while trying to protect powerful investors.
There is a very cogent arguement, that the rate of change is accelerating and will continue to do so in the information computation age (basically when you have invented the wheel you don’t forget how to make fire, and knowledge, technology accumulates) and now we are entering eras of artificial intelligence which rapidly progresses this most long standing arrangement by which humans improve their circumstances by manipulating their environment. We know innovation requires investment and investment seeks return – and I certainly merits in this system, however we must not be indebted to the system, remember all the financial sector is really doing is enabling us produce more of this stuff. In fact, when one looks again from this distance the only party that actually contributes pretty much nothing to the party is a bank, bar this financial enabling; and at such a cost.
What then, does all this mean? Well, potentially (if done as best as we can) we are all going to be much, much better off than ever before; in fact, particularly with Nano-techs’ potential to outmanoeuvre resource limitation we may reach a point where most desired items are in supply beyond global demand. This is a potentially massive improvement and also the breeding ground for a much more democratic and equal society. Why democratic and equal? Well if we bounce back through history and take a very broad perspective we can see the absolutely paramount role played by resources in defining societies’ structures easy enough. Quickly imagine for yourself a small feudal group and you will see that there really wasn’t much wealth to go around in the first place – and realistically one man/family maintained all the power while the others were enslaved. Democracy and many associated movements have historically sought to give that slave a voice, and so pushed for a more equal society. One could from this broad perspective see democracy as having its resurgent origins in the merchant classes growth (as well as an obvious ideological history), and move the needles along from there to our current lot.
These are big ideas, and we may at times find the change a little disconcerting, however, that’s not going to stop geneticists working in laboratories to vastly increase health and extend life-expectancy, or engineers to continue working on nano-tech applications that have been shown, already, to increase solar power capture by 100 times (recall the sun gives enough power to earth to power its current societal usage 10,000 times over) and so much more.
Avery important study in the U.S. a couple of years ago made the point clear; by 2030 most people employed will be working in an area they haven’t heard of yet. So what has all of this got to do with our banks and so on... well the context of these things is essential, and before I use up all the room on the internet with this post I will say if there is a potential leader or, his or her, advisor reading to this point I will be glad to continue this essay.
One quick thought before concluding. I have said that banks and financial markets enable, but, of course, underpinning all of this is the ruling class; or in our democracy our elected representatives. Now, I want you or someone to tell me how many Fianna Fail T.D.’s could discuss these massive changes (could even explain the term nano-tech). This does not, necessarily make them bad people, just unsuited to their jobs. Problem for us is their jobs are so important for us all

[truth or lies]

I think this thread is now officially dead.

Martin 75 I appreciate your very long and rambling most recent post, but unfortunately words will do no real good at least not in this context. You mention your wife and young family and this I understand, political activism is not for the faint hearted and if it were easy everyone would be doing it.

In the future when you really, truly understand the state of our nation and the decades of desolation many people now face (perhaps you included) you will understand why this was such an important matter.

I will do something that's for sure and I will make a difference at some point some where. I've done so before and will do it again. We don't do these thing because they are easy, we must do these things because they are hard.

One thing is for sure, this madness must be stopped.