Democratic Revolution ?

[Pax]

Is it just me or does anybody else realise that we do now live in the 21'st centuary where we can make collective decisions based on smart ideas generated by "The People" and filtered by computer programs.

If you use Google or Yahoo to refine your internet searches?
If you use Sage or Excell to manage your accounts?
If you use Windows or Mac OS to operate your PC or laptop?
If you use Facebook to network your socialising?
All of which that you, the user provide the input to be calculated!

Then why is it you use Brian Cowen and his goonies to run your country???

Indeed....

The time is ripe for 21st century alternatives to the brutally inefficient market we are currently enjoying the uncybernetic benefits off.

See my sig for one democractic participatory alternative that doesn't require such technology, but would be more attuned to it...

ZCommunications | Anarchist Planning Interview by Robin Hahnel | ZNet Article

[Think.Thank]

Indeed....

The time is ripe for 21st century alternatives to the brutally inefficient market we are currently enjoying the uncybernetic benefits off.

See my sig for one democractic participatory alternative that doesn't require such technology, but would be more attuned to it...

ZCommunications | Anarchist Planning Interview by Robin Hahnel | ZNet Article

Sorry Pax, I couldn't read it all which is kind of my point. Politics in it's format today is long and drawn out with lots of unessesary BS thrown in the middle to confuse the majority of the people so that they no longer want to deal with it.
I want to see the whole system crash, which it will, soon. And when it does it has to be built like a computer program that will filter out all the BS and we will be left with the answers that the people need.
Maybe having political programs that run on the tune to X-Factor style producing is actually what we need..... Some smart dudes come up with policies and plans for the country, then the public ring in or vote through the internet and we get winners every time.

The fact is there are 12 year olds that could have made better decisions on government spending than our current leaders if you had put it into a game like Sim City or The Sims. We have a tiny country, can't be that hard to run it without running it into the ground.

[stringjack]

Sorry Pax, I couldn't read it all which is kind of my point. Politics in it's format today is long and drawn out with lots of unessesary BS thrown in the middle to confuse the majority of the people so that they no longer want to deal with it.
I want to see the whole system crash, which it will, soon. And when it does it has to be built like a computer program that will filter out all the BS and we will be left with the answers that the people need.
Maybe having political programs that run on the tune to X-Factor style producing is actually what we need..... Some smart dudes come up with policies and plans for the country, then the public ring in or vote through the internet and we get winners every time.

The fact is there are 12 year olds that could have made better decisions on government spending than our current leaders if you had put it into a game like Sim City or The Sims. We have a tiny country, can't be that hard to run it without running it into the ground.

You need this. It's quite short.

[Martin75]

Truth or Lies, I thought it was LeDroit I was disagreeing with and Flynster was arguing with someone else. Anyway, I agree with what you have said and can certainly feel an understandable reluctance among contributors to this forum. Each person has a large grasp of the problems we are faced with and many valuable contributions to the thinking that will improve our lot - but everyone is also looking in and using a starting point of 'ok, that's what you say but here are the reasons you are wrong and, when I consider it, you really don't know that much - and then I conclude that I will not sign up/follow/agree' etc. Ultimately, some of this reticence comes from an understandable reluctance to actually become involved in something with people you don't really know and potentially end up with egg on the face. How we get beyond this, I am not so sure.

Just to let you know regarding this exchange; I am older than you might expect. I was, certainly, an idealist a long time ago - - and then life and its harsh realities and disappointments and so on led to the realisation of the naivety of idealism; and a superficial understanding of the complexities of societies and histories and one's little minor role within them. Thankfully, though, I kept my mind moving and evolving and it is possible to return to idealism from a different and much more experienced perspective later in life. The grave awaits, one really should just do the best they can to make things better for others - there is little else of significance that can be achieved.

It will be 2020 pretty soon. This bar an existential crisis will occur for many of us; we should look hard at what is likely and what is possible in terms of what we can control from now to that time; and how far down the road of possible we can get if we plan and act now, beginning with very significant change. The change in itself is not the answer but the current paradigm looks very unaccommodating to most of the possibilities and priorities that most of us would wish to pursue

[truth or lies]

Martin75.
Your correct I may have got my lines crossed!
Anyway we agree on the serious challenges facing our nation. Moving forward is always a challenge but this crisis is only beginning and someone has to do something to make a difference and drive change. I also fear very few of the contributions in this forum will move forward from their entrenched cynicism and this too I fully understand. I am glad your older and wiser than I naively believed, I also sense you've given this whole subject some considered thought. However further progress will not occur through this electronic medium at least not for now. The political classes can rest soundly for a while longer, all is indeed quiet on the western front... and the southern, northern and eastern ones also, come to think of it.

[myrak]

Firstly, as a former Progressive Democrat, I would encourage you not to use your proposed name. We were called the PDs by everyone and the meaning in the name was lost. Similarly, you'll be called Triple PI and your noble nomenclature will be pointless.

As for your principles, clearly I reject them all as juvenile fantasy combined with unattainable communist goals and a previously failed 'tax em while ye got em' philosophy. Universal everything combined with forced income redistribution sounds good in a Ladybird version of the Communist Manifesto but in practice results in systems with the user of the service thought of last and the service itself therefore being the minimum accepted standard. Look at our Health System. Forced income redistribution results in evasion, avoidance, black market and emigration with a consequent economic stagnation and reduced tax revenues. The people who pay most income tax simply will not wear your philosophy and while you think they have no choice but to give you their money, they do, and therefore your aspirations will fail as all communist states do.

As for your Tobin Tax! It seems your 'solutions' are to try to think of as many taxes as possible.

I don't think you need start a new party. SF and Labour both espouse your ehm, economic philosophy. Just join them.

It is not Martin75's Tobin Tax but the long overdue Tobin Tax. While almost everything on this earth is deemed 'taxable', the money markets which trade TRILLIONS of dollars every day have for 30 years resisted a suggested Tobin tax of 10 - 25 CENT on every 100 dollars traded which would yield millions of dollars annually. They are 'above' taxation but when their market collapses they are not above taking taxpayers money and crippling economies in the process!
Tobin warrants investigation and discussion and not summary dismissal.
The world money supply has not vanished...it has merely changed hands, from powerless tax payers to very powerful tax avoiders!

[Martin75]

I believe myrak, that something in the vein of the Tobin Tax is exactly what the online community should shout and scream about. Its a numbers thing. The vast vast majority of people would see a Tobin Tax as something that should really be done immediately, while there is some political support, Obama earlier this year seemed open to it, however, there is a tiny percentage of very powerful people that may resist. Vast online campaigns with the associated clarity of public opinion and its ramifications for politicians come elections - and all without the intrusion of the sometimes agenda ridden and heavily institutionalised media is exactly what would help greatly.
Truthorlies, unfortunately I agree with you on the likely time-frames, we certainly will not be accused of being rushed into anything! I think though that at this juncture there may be whatever momentum we can conjure up over coming decade or so with us. I believe also that politics.ie might be a nice template for the opengov.ie I spoke of. I would certainly like to have a website, where I could engage in these discussions in one forum, discuss and quiz politicians in a nearby link,, have people trace and manage information as it relates to issues as they are dealt with in the dail. Don't know if any of you are familiar with cloud representations in diagrams; items that are associated with each other link from each one as in cartoon bubbles, almost - when you click on one a whole new bunch of associations come up. It is an extremely useful tool for navigating vast tracks of information.
All of this transparency, would unfortunately not only benefit the participation level among citizens but seems still a necessity to have politicians behave in the manner befitting someone who wishes to use their intellects to improve social issues, and not see what they can get away with!

[TradCat]

Political reform is necessary and should not get mixed up with economic policy ideas which must be debated on their merits no matter what system we have.

The reason for political reform should be to reduce the size and corruption of the political class by cutting numbers and increasing turnover.

We have to abolish the Seanad. There is no point in suggesting reforms because we can never have an upper house with real power. Power has to belong to the house that is directly elected by the people.

I would cut the numbers in the Dail to improve the quality. Local favours shouldn't be enough to secure election. The candidate should have some contribution to make nationally. A Dail of 100 would give people better mandates and reduce the power of the whips.

Term limits should be introduced so that politics is not a life long career. Do your stint and move on. If you have two terms in which to make your mark you would be less likely the be the kind of nodding dog that we are used to. A term served as minister would not count as one of the two terms so that an exceptional talent could be retained in office for longer.

The President should not have any real power either. We need to reduce the cost of the office from the bloat that happened during the bubble years.

[Cormac O Conachur]

In short the answer to your question is a resounding NO & my reasons for thinking that are basically outlined below:

1. We already have a five year term government. My main Point was that we need a new Government Now and for a five year term to bring in reform.
2. I personally am not convinced abolishing the Seanad is a good idea. Major reform of it and the way senators are elected might be more useful but I am open to both arguments. The current system that delivers a poor return to us on any cost benefit analysis needs reform. While there are some jewels in the seanad, there is also a lot of deadwood. Political debate, and checks and balances are all good when you are trying to steer a steady course, but when you are a mode of reform , and drastic reform, they will slow down the change and would be more a hinderance than a benefit. In the current situation they should be closed down until we have the reform in place and say in 5 years when the political system is reformed, the seanad in the New Form could be reestablished.
3. So who brings your "government" to account? The Media? A few people in the know? The electorate will be accountable for who they elect, and visa versa. Poor performers can be removed by the president mid course if required.
4. Is that not already the case with political party election manifestos?
My idea was to get the electorate to vote on a programme of government from say a range of options tabled at the election time. The most popular would be implemented by our government elected on list basis.
5. That is your view based on what theory? Bond holders are private companies that gamble and punt. They made the wrong calls and yet they are not suffering. The tax payer is suffering for them. The Anglo Irish is not intrinsically important to Ireland. The private and corporate depositors can withdraw their state guaranteed deposits, the bank collapses, or the bond holders decide to rescue it to get what they can for their assets, but leave the tax payer out of it. We have a enough on our plate with the other 2 banks. These are equally in a bad state, but we do, I believe need these 2 banks to stay in operation. I think this is an honourable position.
6. A society based on what? Perhaps handouts? Certainly not, but we need to address the needs of our most vulnerable first and if this means taxing the more privelaged then so be it. Wealth has to be created, and it is companies founded by entrepeneurs that creat such wealth. Wealth creats tax revenue. I am not about taxing our companies or entrepenuers so as to stifle wealth creation, but I believe many that work in the higher levels of these companies could be taxed more heavily.Consumer waste charges that reduce cost to the exchequer and bring in revenue to provide these services are desirable. Health and education need to be well funded, with a focus on getting protecting the more disadvantaged in society.
7. Why in your view is this necessary? To make smart people suffer for being smart? The Smart people are living off the less smart people, that is life, but exploitation is another thing altogether. As i said, an entrepeneur who takes risks to create wealth and jobs should recieve the rewards of his endevours, and generally will in the value of his/her company. But people working for the company while recieving high salaries don't have the same risks, and need to be taxed appropriately. I believe that the residual monies left to these higher earners, will not diminish their buying power, as the price of consumables will drop to more affordable levels. Cars, Houses, Food,Clothes, Holidays will all become more affordable, necessities and luxuries equally. The standard of living will be still very good, and the smarter you are the better you will live, but at least you will have the satisfaction that you are also helping society as well.I also believe consultants and Barristers and public servants in the higher escheleons of government departments are very well paid and yet take no risks, create no wealth for society, and in fact sponge off it. A hospital consultant, who runs a private business using state infrastructure, earning more than 250k pa is a bigger sponger than a social welfare recipient who drives a taxi. Barristers drawing enormous fees from tribunals and the court system are in a protected environment, sponging off the state, creating no wealth for society.
8. Who would this president of yours be answerable to & how often?

The electorate, every 5 years, elected 1 year before the list elected Government.
Our current crop of politicans are terrible however the last time I checked they were all democratically elected by the people of Ireland in what is seen as one of the fairest electoral systems in the world.

True enough,as sense of hopelessness pervades but you can only elect what is put in front of you. If an alternative, with a focus on the national issues, with no concern with local issues was to be put to the electorate you would see a change in emphasis.

The other questions you have in relation to who is to lead this "revolution" is for the founding members of your organisation to figure out but personally I won't hold my breath waiting on this revolution because the simple truth is in spite of all their talk and righteous anger the people of Ireland reject change at every single turn. They say they want "change" & "reform" but truly most of them are happy enough to continue to give out and say how the government screwed them but they will continue to vote for the same local characters time after time. It comes back to medical cards, planning permission & genuine gombeenism.

I think the posts have been very good to date, and posts from yourself, Le Droit, Martin 75 and Truth or Lies have been very interesting. However we need a messiah to breed life into the cause.

Any suggestions?

[swiftian]

I think the posts have been very good to date, and posts from yourself, Le Droit, Martin 75 and Truth or Lies have been very interesting. However we need a messiah to breed life into the cause.

Any suggestions?

more division than unity in these contributions. I have sympathy with many of the aspirations however. State too big (100 tds, no seanad, cabinet of 10, no mins of state) State agencies out of control (the familiar alphabet soup DDDA, DAA, FAS, etc.). No Messiah required, just managers...