Seanad chaos on Anglo nationalisation

[Lefournier]

As the transcript shows, the Seanad debate on one of the most important pieces of legislation in our economic history ended in chaos. http://debates.oireachtas.ie/Xml/30/SEN20090120.PDF

If anything, the transcript gives the debate a greater sense of coherence than actually prevailed.

Today's page 10 of today's IT print edition carries a report that FG is challenging the process because no vote was called at the conclusion of the debate. (sorry, no link on the IT website). The matter will be referred to the Seanad Comm. on Procedures and Privileges.

I think this is unprecedented but I would be interested to know if any other legislation was ever challenged in this way i.e. because Oireachtas procedures were not followed.

I know the courts are very careful not to supervise the workings of the Oireachtas (except where the Oireachtas starts acting like a court of justice) but if a fundamental step in the legislative process has been omitted (i.e. a final vote not called when requested), there may be grounds for legal challenge e.g. for an Anglo shareholder to challenge the legislation.

Should there be a "do-over" in the Seanad (like Obama/Roberts?)

There was embarrasment in December when the Govt. lost a vote on an amendment in the Seanad but they seemed to accept that vote, I think because the amendment didn't end up in legislation

Fianna Fáil claimed that the Government whip in the Seanad, Diarmuid Wilson, had risen to his feet to ask for a "walk through" as soon as the electronic vote was lost but had not been spotted by the cathaoirleach Pat Moylan. In spite of protests from Mr Cassidy and others, Mr Moylan refused to allow a "walk through".

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...434209125.html

[Rocky]

Regarding the government's defeat in the Seanad, they simply put that amendment to the house again at a later point and won the second time.

On this point, it is very strange. I don't believe that Moylan simply didn't hear anyone call for a vote. There is a vote on nearly everything nevermind an important piece of legislation like this, so he would assume someone would call for one.

[BodyofEvidence]

As the transcript shows, the Seanad debate on one of the most important pieces of legislation in our economic history ended in chaos. http://debates.oireachtas.ie/Xml/30/SEN20090120.PDF

If anything, the transcript gives the debate a greater sense of coherence than actually prevailed.

Today's page 10 of today's IT print edition carries a report that FG is challenging the process because no vote was called at the conclusion of the debate. (sorry, no link on the IT website). The matter will be referred to the Seanad Comm. on Procedures and Privileges.

I think this is unprecedented but I would be interested to know if any other legislation was ever challenged in this way i.e. because Oireachtas procedures were not followed.

I know the courts are very careful not to supervise the workings of the Oireachtas (except where the Oireachtas starts acting like a court of justice) but if a fundamental step in the legislative process has been omitted (i.e. a final vote not called when requested), there may be grounds for legal challenge e.g. for an Anglo shareholder to challenge the legislation.

Should there be a "do-over" in the Seanad (like Obama/Roberts?)

There was embarrasment in December when the Govt. lost a vote on an amendment in the Seanad but they seemed to accept that vote, I think because the amendment didn't end up in legislation

Embarrassing defeat for Government in Seanad vote - The Irish Times - Fri, Dec 05, 2008

FFS, what a metaphor for the state of the country.

[wombat]

I suppose the idea of abolishing the Seanad died with the PD's?

[PhoenixIreland]

I suppose the idea of abolishing the Seanad died with the PD's?

Yep, by sheer coincidence the policy dropped right around the time they got their first seats in it.

[W..R.H]

This will be interesting. It was evident that a number of people called for a vote, but the caoitherleach said he did not hear them. Odd tbh.

[Lefournier]

The root cause of the chaos was the timetable for the debate imposed by the Government. The sitting was postponed until 7 pm and then, despite Opposition protests, the following motion was put at the outset and declared carried.

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders:
(1) The Seanad shall adjourn not later than 11p.m. tonight;
(2) The Second and Remaining Stages of the Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Bill 2009 shall be taken today...

It was bound to end to in uproar.

[Michael Stephen Nolan]

The Anglo - Irish Bank is representative of the level of honesty in the banking sector.

Their auditors should have done a better job and there are smaller audit firms should be given the chance to do audits, instead of the Big Four, who are now a joke.

[Factorem]

Has this issue simply "gone away"?

It's an affront to the constitution the way this debacle was handled.

"Chaos" is an understatement.

A very, very dangerous precedent has been set for the future.

"Oireachtas reform" is the least of our worries. How can we "reform" when we don't stick to the law of the land in the first place?

[ivnryn]

Presumably, the President has signed the bill (as she was satisified that it was passed by both Houses), so it is law.