the Hypothetical Party

[yehbut_nobut]

Ok - health warning: There are lots of discussions already about the demise of the PDs and the potential for a new party to claim their place. Also, lots of discussions about the need for "reform"- of the public service, the economy etc. now you know where to post if you want to discuss these topics.

This thread is about Oireachtas reform. Speaking hypothetically, would there be any hope for a potential party that had one aim only: To get elected, completely reform the Dail and Seanad, and then - job done - vote itself out of existance and call general election?

Forget your ministerial pay-rise defferals, or your fanfared 5 or 10% wage cut.
To my mind, and root and branch reform of other sectors can only be done with any credibility (and therefore effectiveness) by starting at the very top. "Get your own house in order", if you will.

Lets face it the Dail could meet in a large portacabin if need be. All the rest is just waste and ego massage. Fine (maybe) when we had the money, but times have changed.

Since the turkeys are not going to vote for christmas themselves, would a party with a one-term mandate to do some or all of the following have an electral chance?

Reduce number of deputies/senators
Reduce all salaries from taoiseach down
Limit the number of ministries - do away with junior ministries
Eliminate expenses / allowances. you get paid to do your job. Any other position (committee member/hciar etc) is an honour and a privilige and that should be reward enough.
Do away with the bawbies and bangles - eg members gym, subsidised bars, and other unneccessary "comforts"

Some of these changes could be made by way of constitutional amendments, ie to stop an incoming government automatically reversing them.

This could be expanded to look at funding/numbers of local government reps, too.

And it's true, this would not save any massive amount of money. But, when things are pared right back, it would give a government some authority to say to other sectors "Right, you're next".

This is all off-the cuff, but would there be any merit?

[Defeated Romanticist]

Populist windbaggery.

[yehbut_nobut]

Populist windbaggery.

That would be a great name for the Party!

[ManOfReason]

I don't see how any of these changes will stop people voting for gobsh**s.

Lets face it, showing signs of intelligence, being able to communicate you ideas, understanding the issues and a desire to make Ireland a better country to live in are all hindrances to getting elected to the Dail.

To be sure to get elected one just needs to be related to a TD, be a school teacher, talk only in unintelligible stock phrases, be indignant about everything without ever suggesting any alternatives and threaten to resign from your own party at least once a year if they are in government while at the same time claiming credit for every euro the government spends in you constituency.

[Libero]

Ok - health warning: There are lots of discussions already about the demise of the PDs and the potential for a new party to claim their place. Also, lots of discussions about the need for "reform"- of the public service, the economy etc. now you know where to post if you want to discuss these topics.

This thread is about Oireachtas reform. Speaking hypothetically, would there be any hope for a potential party that had one aim only: To get elected, completely reform the Dail and Seanad, and then - job done - vote itself out of existance and call general election?

Forget your ministerial pay-rise defferals, or your fanfared 5 or 10% wage cut.
To my mind, and root and branch reform of other sectors can only be done with any credibility (and therefore effectiveness) by starting at the very top. "Get your own house in order", if you will.

Lets face it the Dail could meet in a large portacabin if need be. All the rest is just waste and ego massage. Fine (maybe) when we had the money, but times have changed.

Since the turkeys are not going to vote for christmas themselves, would a party with a one-term mandate to do some or all of the following have an electral chance?

Reduce number of deputies/senators
Reduce all salaries from taoiseach down
Limit the number of ministries - do away with junior ministries
Eliminate expenses / allowances. you get paid to do your job. Any other position (committee member/hciar etc) is an honour and a privilige and that should be reward enough.
Do away with the bawbies and bangles - eg members gym, subsidised bars, and other unneccessary "comforts"

Some of these changes could be made by way of constitutional amendments, ie to stop an incoming government automatically reversing them.

This could be expanded to look at funding/numbers of local government reps, too.

And it's true, this would not save any massive amount of money. But, when things are pared right back, it would give a government some authority to say to other sectors "Right, you're next".

This is all off-the cuff, but would there be any merit?

I've been thinking along the same lines.

To answer the question, no: the electorate care far more for "real", bread-and-butter issues than the abstract question of reforming our political institutions. That's especially true if the promised reform cannot be implemented on election but only through a later constitutional referendum.

That said, I don't think our country can come anywhere near its potential under the current structures. To pick just one issue, having TDs as Ministers is daft enough, but it's close to national suicide when those TDs are produced by a system where it is rational for the educated voter to choose the best localist/parish-pump type candidate.

So to REALLY answer the question: comprehensive political reform could be PART of the platform of a new party, a powerful part. It would certainly mark that party apart from the existing ones, who can be expected to visibly oppose the reform for selfish reasons.
But the new party would have to be careful not to be seen as either superficial in its aims ("populist windbaggery!") or else so focused on them that the party is seen as aloof and only interested in abstract political reform rather than peoples' lives and the country's future.

The key to electoral success and practical implementation would be to convince the electorate that you are focused on the issues that matter to them (the practical ones) but that the country will not work unless its political structures are reformed.

[Defeated Romanticist]

Fellas I admire you're idealism, but what you suggest is totally unrealistic because it stirkes at the very heart of what politics is.

Takefor example the junior ministers. They started out as P Secretaries for ministers with a of of responsibilities, then they morphed into JMs so a politician could hold together a coalition of supporters by giving them important sounding jobs and then when deals needed to be done like when the rainbow was put together in 1994 they were expanded again so everyone could get something. In reality we could go very well with 12 Depts and 7 JMs but politics necessitates...

Same could be said of Dáíl sitting time, Dáil committees and lots of other things. Even if one party could be constructed with this as a part of it's platform, it would be impossible for it to achieve these aims in coalition because of the necessary horse-trading that would be required when forming govts. To save face a piecemeal gesture would be made, sacrificing one JM or having the Dáil sit for an extra week ect. Even if such a party was in an overall majority, the need to placate 84+ egos and ambitions would blunt the drive for "reform". Junior Ministers, Dáil committees ect are our version of pork barrel spending. No party, believe it or not, including Fianna Fáil, really wants 17 JMs but they would consume to much political capital to get rid of them. A necessary part of a Democracy with many checks and balances. We should be greatful for them in an perverse sort of way, the alternative where back-room deals don't have to be made would entail an unhealthy concentration of power.

[polito123]

It's a great idea, considering that there are Dail deputies drawing massive salaries, while sitting comfortably in their own constituencies doing nothing. Some of the voting records of the deputies is atrocious.

Paying expenses when they're not there is also ridiculous.

But I will not believe for one minute that any party could get elected on this mandate. The same fools will continue to vote Fianna Fail, even when they continue to bleed the country dry.

If the Haughey and then Bertie fiasco didn't appeal to their moral beliefs, nothing will. Short of a FF deputy barging into their house and raping them, people will still stay loyal to that shower.

[cropbeye]

I've been thinking along the same lines.

To answer the question, no: the electorate care far more for "real", bread-and-butter issues than the abstract question of reforming our political institutions. That's especially true if the promised reform cannot be implemented on election but only through a later constitutional referendum.

That said, I don't think our country can come anywhere near its potential under the current structures. To pick just one issue, having TDs as Ministers is daft enough, but it's close to national suicide when those TDs are produced by a system where it is rational for the educated voter to choose the best localist/parish-pump type candidate.

So to REALLY answer the question: comprehensive political reform could be PART of the platform of a new party, a powerful part. It would certainly mark that party apart from the existing ones, who can be expected to visibly oppose the reform for selfish reasons.
But the new party would have to be careful not to be seen as either superficial in its aims ("populist windbaggery!") or else so focused on them that the party is seen as aloof and only interested in abstract political reform rather than peoples' lives and the country's future.

The key to electoral success and practical implementation would be to convince the electorate that you are focused on the issues that matter to them (the practical ones) but that the country will not work unless its political structures are reformed.

I don't object to the parish pump as such. However the problem is that if a minister spends
too much of his/her time being a good minister and not enough time down on the farm then
because of the multi seat constituency system; he she can be displaced by an upstart in
their own party.

[Defeated Romanticist]

I don't object to the parish pump as such. However the problem is that if a minister spends
too much of his/her time being a good minister and not enough time down on the farm then
because of the multi seat constituency system; he she can be displaced by an upstart in
their own party.

Not if the people want good ministers.

Democracy is never wrong, even when it is mistaken.

[cathal maguidhir]

""real", bread-and-butter issues"
it wont be long before the issues
are meaningless ,and the thing that proceeds it
everything