Croatian accession treaty comes before the Oireachtas.

[sondagefaux]

You may need to sit down. You must be dizzy.

First you produce a 2009 Decision and you say that is the Protocol text, then you produce a mention of an Irish Draft Protocol from 2011 and say that is the text, even though they are patently different documents. Unless you think the Irish officials for some reason copy and pasted the Decision and are trying to pass it off as Irish?

Whatever next?

As predictable as predicted:

I fear you're opposing one of He3's famous punchbags made of mist. While I'm sure he understands full well what that says, he both can and will attempt to go on creating doubt in the minds of the jury by re-stating that that is the text of a Decision, not a Protocol, even though it is rather clear that the Decision contains the text of the Protocol, because it is a Decision to attach that text as a Protocol.

To be entirely fair, though, until the Protocol has actually become a Protocol, it is still in theory susceptible to a further Decision - true, no such Decision, or even any discussion relevant to such a Decision, has happened, and none is even slightly likely to happen, given that the Guarantees only reiterate things that are already in the Treaty, but when you're in the business of manufacturing doubt, that's hardly relevant.

Patently different documents? Yes, in that they're probably printed on different bits of paper. Patently different texts? You have a copy of the draft Protocol to hand to prove this?

BTW, the Decision of 2009 was essentially Irish drafted.

[He3]

qed.

You really believe the Irish Draft Protocol is word for word the same as the 2009 Council Decision?

Have you a source for that?

If they are the same, why the Polish Presidency response?

[sondagefaux]

You really believe the Irish Draft Protocol is word for word the same as the 2009 Council Decision?

Have you a source for that?

You really believe they're entirely different? Have you a source for that?

If they are the same, why the Polish Presidency response?

What's so significant about that response? The Irish Protocol is going to be discussed at the next scheduled European Council meeting in mid-October. Is there something sinister about this?

[ibis]

You really believe the Irish Draft Protocol is word for word the same as the 2009 Council Decision?

Have you a source for that?

The Decision says that it will add the text in the Annex as a Protocol. If there has been re-negotiation, there's been no word of it. There's no suggestion of it in the IT articles you've referenced, either - so why do you believe they're different? Have you a source for any re-negotiation?

If they are the same, why the Polish Presidency response?

What, that it has received the request to put the Decision into action? Why does that need an explanation? It's like getting excited when a Department acknowledges that it has "received an application".

Seriously, He3, you've a real talent for picking up interesting and newsworthy events, and a real talent for turning them into tedious exercises in exhibitionist semantic masturbation devoid of any connection with reality. You'd have been a real crowd-puller in medieval theological disputes.

[Half Nelson]

"In a letter to the EU presidency on September 2nd, the Irish ambassador to the EU asked that a protocol be attached to Europe’s forthcoming Croatian accession treaty ensuring Ireland’s jurisdiction over taxation would not be compromised."

Assurances sought on 12.5% tax rate - The Irish Times - Fri, Sep 16, 2011

"Due to the lengthy timeframe involved in ratifying a treaty change, EU leaders decided to wait until Croatia was due to join. After Croatia’s accession negotiations concluded in July, Dublin requested the change, which would require all member states to vote on the issue in their national parliaments.

A spokesman for the holder of the EU presidency, Poland, said it had received the request and would continue its efforts on the proposal."

Of course, the real story here is not that the government has asked for a protocol on taxation to be attached to the accession treaty, but that it has not included a similar request for a protocol on abortion and neutrality.
Since all three constitute the Guarantees it would seem perfectly reasonable, even sensible, to treat them as one item - that's if the government is serious about their full implementation.

Of course, we now have a parties in government whose attitudes towards abortion and neutrality are well known, so it may be that they are hoping that elements of the Guarantees will be overtaken by events. Otherwise, why the difference in emphasis?

[sondagefaux]

Of course, the real story here is not that the government has asked for a protocol on taxation to be attached to the accession treaty, but that it has not included a similar request for a protocol on abortion and neutrality.
Since all three constitute the Guarantees it would seem perfectly reasonable, even sensible, to treat them as one item - that's if the government is serious about their full implementation.

Of course, we now have a parties in government whose attitudes towards abortion and neutrality are well known, so it may be that they are hoping that elements of the Guarantees will be overtaken by events. Otherwise, why the difference in emphasis?

It was the last government that didn't ask for those issues to be covered by a Protocol, mainly because abortion is already covered by a Protocol and neutrality, in the context of any potential EU alliance, is covered by a clause in our own Constitution.

Try to pay attention at the back of the class.

[Catalpa]

No doubt we will be invoking the seven-year derogation in relation to access to our labour market.

Excellent idea

Unfortunately too much money is being made out cheap foreign labour in this State

- for the powers that be to ever throttle that golden goose

[sondagefaux]

European foreign ministers have begun the process of formally attaching the Irish guarantees on corporate tax, family and social issues and neutrality to the EU treaties, according to the Minister for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton.

The guarantees, which are thought to have helped the previous government win a second Lisbon vote in 2009, are due to be added to European Law in the form of a protocol which will be formally attached when Croatia accedes to the European Union in 2012.

...

On the question of the Lisbon Treaty guarantees, today's formal adoption by foreign ministers means the guarantees should be agreed by EU heads of government when they meet at the crucial summit on 23 October.

The issue then goes to the European Commission and European Parliament for final approval before the guarantees become a binding part of EU Law.

Lisbon guarantees being added to EU treaties - RT News

[sondagefaux]

Yes I appreciate the distinction. It is a distinction without a difference.

Let's see the Protocol. It was to be produced at this time, and surely it cannot still be in purdah?

From the press release issued after the meeting of the EU's General Affairs Council in Luxembourg on 11th October:

The Council agreed to submit to the European Council proposals for the addition to the EU treaties
of:
– a protocol on the concerns of the Irish people regarding the Treaty of Lisbon (13181/11).
– a protocol on the application of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights to the Czech Republic (13840/11)

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDoc...aff/125036.pdf

Document 13181/11, which contains the text of the proposed protocol is available here:

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/...13181.en11.pdf

The text of the Protocol as set out in Document 13181/11:

PROTOCOL (….) ON THE CONCERNS OF THE IRISH PEOPLE ON THE TREATY OF LISBON
THE KINGDOM OF BELGIUM,
THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA,
THE CZECH REPUBLIC,
THE KINGDOM OF DENMARK,
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA,
IRELAND,
THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC,
THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN,
THE FRENCH REPUBLIC,
THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC,
THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS,
THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA,
THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA,
THE GRAND DUCHY OF LUXEMBOURG,
THE REPUBLIC OF HUNGARY,
MALTA,
THE KINGDOM OF THE NETHERLANDS,
THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA,
THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND,
THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC,
ROMANIA,
THE REPUBLIC OF SLOVENIA,
THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC,
THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND,
THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN,
THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,

hereinafter referred to as "THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES",

RECALLING the Decision of the Heads of State or Government of the 27 Member States of the
European Union, meeting within the European Council, on 18/19 June 2009, on the concerns of the
Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon;
RECALLING the declaration of the Heads of State or Government, meeting within the European
Council, on 18/19 June 2009, that they will, at the time of the conclusion of the next Accession
Treaty, set out the provisions of the aforementioned Decision in a Protocol to be attached, in
accordance with their respective constitutional requirements, to the Treaty on European Union and
the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union;
[NOTING the signature by the High Contracting Parties of the Treaty between the High Contracting
Parties and the Republic of Croatia concerning the accession of the Republic of Croatia to the
European Union;]

HAVE AGREED UPON the following provisions, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:

TITLE I
RIGHT TO LIFE, FAMILY AND EDUCATION
Article 1
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

TITLE II
TAXATION
Article 2
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation.

TITLE III
SECURITY AND DEFENCE
Article 3
The Union's action on the international scene is guided by the principles of democracy, the rule of law, the universality and indivisibility of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for human dignity, the principles of equality and solidarity, and respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law.

The Union's common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy and provides the Union with an operational capacity to undertake missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter.

It does not prejudice the security and defence policy of each Member State, including Ireland, or the obligations of any Member State.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not affect or prejudice Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality.

It will be for Member States - including Ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to its traditional policy of military neutrality - to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a Member State which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on its territory.

Any decision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the European Council. It would be a matter for the Member States, including Ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, whether or not to adopt a common defence.

Nothing in this Title affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other Member State on security and defence.

It is also a matter for each Member State to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and any domestic legal requirements, whether to participate in permanent structured cooperation or the European Defence Agency.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European army or for conscription to any military formation.

It does not affect the right of Ireland or any other Member State to determine the nature and volume of its defence and security expenditure and the nature of its defence capabilities.

It will be a matter for Ireland or any other Member State, to decide, in accordance with any domestic legal requirements, whether or not to participate in any military operation.

TITLE IV
FINAL PROVISIONS
Article 4
This Protocol shall be ratified by the High Contracting Parties, in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Government of the Italian Republic.

This Protocol shall enter into force if possible on [……….], provided that all the instruments of ratification have been deposited, or, failing that, on the first day of the month following the deposit of the instrument of ratification by the last signatory State to take this step.

Article 5
This Protocol, drawn up in a single original in the Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish and Swedish languages, each text being equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the Italian Republic, which shall transmit a certified copy to each of the governments of the other signatory States.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the undersigned Plenipotentiaries have signed this Protocol.

Done at … this day of …. in the year ….

Text of the Decision of June 2009:

DECISION OF THE HEADS OFSTATE OR GOVERMENT OF THE 27 MEMBER STATES OF THE EU, MEETING WITHIN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL, ON THE CONCERNS OF THE IRISH PEOPLE ON THE TREATY OF LISBON

The Heads of State or Government of the 27 Member States of the European Union, whose Governments are signatories of the Treaty of Lisbon,

Taking note of the outcome of the Irish referendum of 12 June 2008 on the Treaty of Lisbon and of the concerns of the Irish people identified by the Taoiseach,
Desiring to address those concerns in conformity with that Treaty,
Having regard to the Conclusions of the European Council of 11-12 December 2008,
Have agreed on the following Decision:

SECTION A
RIGHT TO LIFE,FAMILY AND EDUCATION
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

SECTION B
TAXATION
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation.

SECTION C
SECURITY AND DEFENCE
The Union's action on the international scene is guided by the principles of democracy, the rule of law, the universality and indivisibility of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for human dignity, the principles of equality and solidarity, and respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law.

The Union's common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy and provides the Union with an operational capacity to undertake missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter.

It does not prejudice the security and defence policy of each Member State, including Ireland, or the obligations of any Member State.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not affect or prejudice Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality.

It will be for Member States - including Ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to its traditional policy of military neutrality - to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a Member State which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on its territory.

Any decision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the European Council. It would be a matter for the Member States, including Ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, whether or not to adopt a common defence.

Nothing in this Section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other Member State on security and defence.

It is also a matter for each Member State to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and any domestic legal requirements, whether to participate in permanent structured cooperation or the European Defence Agency.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European army or for conscription to any military formation.

It does not affect the right of Ireland or any other Member State to determine the nature and volume of its defence and security expenditure and the nature of its defence capabilities.

It will be a matter for Ireland or any other Member State, to decide, in accordance with any domestic legal requirements, whether or not to participate in any military operation.

SECTION D
FINAL PROVISIONS
This decision shall take effect on the same date as the Treaty of Lisbon

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/...onclusions.pdf

The words that are common to both texts are highlighted in bold.

[sondagefaux]

The Protocol on the Concerns of the Irish People etc. has now been presented to the European Parliament which is scheduled to vote on this proposal to revise the EU treaties, without convening a Convention of the member states, in plenary session on 28/3/2012:

Procedure File: 2011/0816(NLE)

The European Council has proposed to revise the treaties regarding the inclusion of a Protocol on the concerns of the Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon. It proposed in parallel not to convene a Convention to add a Protocol on the concerns of the Irish people on the Lisbon Treaty to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

2011/0816(NLE) - 06/10/2011 Legislative proposal

The proposal to revise the EU treaties to add the 'Irish' Protocol is made under the simplified revision procedures set out in the Treaty of Lisbon.

The proposal to add the Protocol without calling a Convention will have to be approved by the European Parliament.

If the proposal is approved by the European Parliament, then the proposed amendment to the EU treaties, which is what the Protocol is, will have to be ratified by all EU member states in accordance with their constitutional requirements.

Naturally, since the Protocol is, legally-speaking, a proposed amendment to the existing EU treaties, those who demand referendums on all such proposed amendments will be calling for a referendum in Ireland and all other EU member states.