Ireland is not a Democracy. Change is therefore impossible.

[LeDroit]

Not for Constitutional Referendum.There is no public petition system in place.

Under Article 46 of the Constitution, a proposal to amend the Constitution must be introduced in the Dáil as a Bill. When the Bill has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas (Parliament), it must be submitted to the people for approval at a referendum.

[COLOR=navy][FONT=Verdana]AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=navy][FONT=Verdana]Article 46[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Verdana]1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]3.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]4.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]A Bill containing a proposal or proposals for the amendment of this Constitution shall not contain any other proposal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]5.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]A Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution shall be signed by the President forthwith upon his being satisfied that the provisions of this Article have been complied with in respect thereof and that such proposal has been duly approved by the people in accordance with the provisions of section 1 of Article 47 of this Constitution and shall be duly promulgated by the President as a law.[/FONT]

The Establishment wins again! You have to admire Dev. He was a crafty fecker. He removed the people from the system very well.

[SideysGhost]

The whole model of "representative democracy" has been a con from the beginning. It was designed in the 18th century to allow the tiny elite of landowners and financiers to retain control over the masses by throwing them a bone, an illusion that they actually had a say.

And that's why "reform" always seems to be impossible. Because ye've all been conditioned to play the game according to the rules and parameters laid down long ago by the vermin.

Rearranging the pieces is pointless. We need to smash the board.

[LeDroit]

The whole model of "representative democracy" has been a con from the beginning. It was designed in the 18th century to allow the tiny elite of landowners and financiers to retain control over the masses by throwing them a bone, an illusion that they actually had a say.

And that's why "reform" always seems to be impossible. Because ye've all been conditioned to play the game according to the rules and parameters laid down long ago by the vermin.

Rearranging the pieces is pointless. We need to smash the board.

What's your suggestion and how would you implement it?

[Munnkeyman]

The Establishment wins again! You have to admire Dev. He was a crafty fecker. He removed the people from the system very well.

He had help!!

[LeDroit]

He had help!!

Seriously though, can you see any way of changing this system or are we stuck with this lunacy?

[SideysGhost]

What's your suggestion and how would you implement it?

A few hangings to start with

After that? I dunno, it strikes me that almost any organised system with stable institutions is inherently corruptible and inherently prone to being captured by entrenched vested interests.

It also strikes me as being fundamentally unnatural. Spontaneous self-assembly (and dis-assembly!) is the way most of the Universe runs.

That's the kind of direction my mind is running these days when I think about this problem....

[Mossy Heneberry]

Seriously though, can you see any way of changing this system or are we stuck with this lunacy?

If you want to change the system, we're going to have to start from the top down. We need to shrink government. One hundred and sixty six TD's. We could half that. Reform the senate. One senator per county. Reduce the number of councillors by half. In Waterford alone we have four mayors. One mayor per county. Abolish the majority of our quangos and also abolish the majority of governmental departments. The government should also be restrained from giving our money away to NGO's.

We need to do this as this will reduce favouritism, cronyism and corruption.

[pujols]

A few hangings to start with

After that? I dunno, it strikes me that almost any organised system with stable institutions is inherently corruptible and inherently prone to being captured by entrenched vested interests.

It also strikes me as being fundamentally unnatural. Spontaneous self-assembly (and dis-assembly!) is the way most of the Universe runs.

That's the kind of direction my mind is running these days when I think about this problem....

You should read up on the Critical Legal Studies Movement in the US, particularly Roberto M Unger. They have that idea as part of their central thinking.

"The most important fact about us:that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build"

[Munnkeyman]

Seriously though, can you see any way of changing this system or are we stuck with this lunacy?

I really wish I had the answer.
We people need to start agitating, marching and then start putting independents through
for elections.
We have to end party political interests as that only amounts to hegemony
not democracy.
We definitely need to do away with FF,FG, Lab, Greens and SF and their
maligned agendas.
We can put ourselves forward in the next G.E. look at your local constituencies, talk
to the constituents, draw on their discontent and use it in a positive fashion.
It is the only way to make a difference.
The revolution trick has lost its veneer now that the common ''enemy' has left.

[Gimpanzee]

Got to thinking about our 'system' today. I was considering how it could be reformed or reinvented when it suddenly hit me that Ireland is not actually a democracy.

The Presidency;
A citizen is not entitled to run for the presidency. You cannot get your name on the ballot paper unless a political party nominates you. Therefore the electorate only get a choice of what the establishment gives them. Thus, since the nomination process is rigged that's not a free and fair election. The People do not pick their President, the establishment does.

The Seanad;
Shooting fish in a barrel this one. The people do not get a vote. Only certain citizens are deemed worthy of voting, eg university graduates. Most senators are 'elected' by fellow politicians, eg councillors, and for some they don't even bother with the charade and the Taioseach just appoints them. So the Seanad is completely outside the control of the citizen. The establishment decides again.

The Taoiseach;
Is not elected by the people at all. Fellow TDs 'elect' him. The people have no choice on who their leader is. They just get to pick a guy who gets to choose on 'their' behalf. The only problem is that the TD can only become a TD with the gift of the establishment (see below), therefore the establishment decides who the Taoiseach is.

The Dail/TDs;
The only kind of democratic bit on the face of it. Theoretically any citizen can run for election to the Dail but in practice it costs money. If you are not already a TD or a selected candidate by an existing political party then you can't get state funding to finance that campaign. And you are not allowed to fundraise from within your own means or from within a small group of supporters as the establishment have set the rules so that there is an individual limit on the donation per person. Thus, new individuals or new parties cannot enter the fray. The establishment decides who is on the ballot paper with any realistic financial wherewithal to actually get elected. Certainly, it's so restrictive that a sufficiently large group of new candidates cannot be elected to challenge the establishments status quo. In addition, even if you do get elected you are not allowed to speak in the Dail unless the establishment affords you 'speaking rights'.

So, the Establishment decides who is a TD, Senator, President and Taoiseach. The People do not. We do not have a Democracy. Change is impossible.

A lot of that is true, but before you get too carried away with the notion of some elitist establishment that hand picks its own, remember Jackie. The system isn't a cunning fox, its a big dumb dinosaur.



Opposable thumbs. The height of sophistication.