Seanad Eireann

[BlowIn]

The Senanad is a fecking joke, I wouldnt give yer man Donnie Cassidy a job packing bags in Aldi, Leader of the house my ass. Leader of the biggest waste of time we have in this state.

Either make them all fully elected by the people, with real power and half their number and half their wages OR pack the whole thing up and let Donnie apply for a real job in the real world.

We shouldnt need tribunals in this country, Bertie and Co should have been hauled before a Upper House US style committee and roasted live on the airwaves.

P.S
One of the few things we should copy from america is the fact that they will jail the likes of Ahern, Lowery, Flynn, Fahey, Byrne etc.
Haughey would have stayed in another big house if he had been a yank

[Passer-by]

Well if the Dail took a different line to the government, then dam near inherently the government would fall. That's the way parliamentary democracy works. It would have happened in 1994 had FF given it the chance.

What the Government would fall because the Oireachtas took a different line on legislation to the Executive? That is twaddle.

The Government must have a majority in the case of confidence motions and in the case of finance bills (i.e. the budget). After that, there is no requirement for them to have a majority in the case of any other bill.

There is absolutely no reason why the Oireachtas can't take a different line on legislation to the Executive if they so choose. What would be so terrible if a Dail sub-committee examined an exisiting piece of legislation, figured out what needed to be updated, introduced the necessary legislation (after suitable drafting) and passed it on their own initative?

It would give the other TDs something useful to do. If the Dail can't do this, then we need at most around 61 TDs in the Dail (15 Ministers, 15 Juniors, 1 Ceann Comhairle and 30 to engage in pointless "opposition" to them).

there is no fundamental reason as to why the government must reject them, that's just a choice FF makes and opposition bills/amendments have been accepted in the past.

I agree with your first point but there is no way this is just confined to FF. FG are just as bad about accepting amendments when in Government.

It's notable that pretty much every country in the world has a parliament, even many non-democratic ones.

Believe it or not, I actually believe in the concept of Parliaments. I don't believe in rubber-stamps assemblies though. Either the Oireachtas can operate independently or it is just an elaborate expense that serves around as much useful purpose as the Seanad.

[beamish2010]

Full of failed Dail candidates.
Scandalously undemocratic.
Waste of Money.
Protects privilege.

(I get the feeling this could be a bit like the Life of Brian sketch where after all the reasons are given John Cleese keepscoming back and says "Hmmm, yes but what else?")

I could not agree with you more.The senate is another glorified doss-house,
which is full of rejected would-be TD's and another scandalous waste of
taxpayers money.The senate should be scrapped alright and confined to
the dustbin of history.

[sparkey321]

Why do you have to post sh*te like this? It ruins debate.

Because he is not interested in debate.

It worries me to read plans like this from FG. Their history is relevant in light of plans like these. I would like to know the rationale behind putting this before the electorate if they come to power. History shows in all walks of life people make sub optimal decisions under severe stress and when in search of hope. For me these FG proposals offer no hope in the face our current difficulties and I worry there may be more sinister motivations at work on the part of the blueshirts.

For that reason I point out their historical link to Franco, and I'll add one of Hitlers first actions in consolidating power was abolishing the upper house of parliament and Mussolini was an advocate of list systems.

Where do FG get their inspiration I wonder?

You my friend are exactly what is wrong with politics in this country.

Do you want to look at the history of your party ?

[pjoz]

Because he is not interested in debate.



You my friend are exactly what is wrong with politics in this country.

Do you want to look at the history of your party ?

By all means start a thread on the issue. In this one Id like people to address the issue I raised.

Nobody seems to have a compelling reason to abolish it.Its in dire need of reform and most of the posts outline it flaws and alludes to that fact. I cant recall ever being in agreement with sentiments uttered by McDowell before, I am on this.

Facists in the past had a penchant for doing away with upper houses of parliament while consolidating power.They also had a fondness for list systems.I think its a fair question for somebody to ask what rationale FG have for putting this before the electorate given their historical links with facism

[Supermanpolitician]

By all means start a thread on the issue. In this one Id like people to address the issue I raised.

Nobody seems to have a compelling reason to abolish it.Its in dire need of reform and most of the posts outline it flaws and alludes to that fact. I cant recall ever being in agreement with sentiments uttered by McDowell before, I am on this.

Facists in the past had a penchant for doing away with upper houses of parliament while consolidating power.They also had a fondness for list systems.I think its a fair question for somebody to ask what rationale FG have for putting this before the electorate given their historical links with facism

And Godwin's Law states.....

[adrem]

The Seanad should not be abolished - in my view we need an upper house. However the Seanad as it currently operates should certainly be abolished and it should be replaced with an actually operational and functional upper house.

60% of the members should be directly elected, the remainder should be appointed via a list system.

The current rubbish around its bizarre electorate needs to be completely thrown out !! The people should vote in the members of the Seanad.

The other Dail reforms that should be considered would be teduce the number of TDs to 100. All to be elected by the people (the list system element will apply only to the upper house). Dail Eireann is our house of representatives so they must by definition be representatives of the people, selected by them in secret ballot. In conjunction with this there needs to be a separation of local from national issues - ie enhance the power of local government but simultaneously greatly enhance the transparency of their decision making and also greatly enhance the level of over-sight of the parliament over local government - maybe via a constitutionally recognised committee of oversight.

I'd go along with the proposal to reverse the consequence of the abbeylara judgement and implement a dail/seanad committee of enquiry model.

Change the proposal re the people's right to petition - increase the threshold to 100,000 but make it binding that the petition be considered and debated in both houses - allowing just 25,000 signatures is too low and the duty of the Dail to respond simply by "considering" the proposal is too weak.

[Clive]

It worries me to read plans like this from FG. Their history is relevant in light of plans like these. I would like to know the rationale behind putting this before the electorate if they come to power. History shows in all walks of life people make sub optimal decisions under severe stress and when in search of hope. For me these FG proposals offer no hope in the face our current difficulties and I worry there may be more sinister motivations at work on the part of the blueshirts.

For that reason I point out their historical link to Franco, and I'll add one of Hitlers first actions in consolidating power was abolishing the upper house of parliament and Mussolini was an advocate of list systems.

Where do FG get their inspiration I wonder?

pjoz, as you are using a Sinn Féin avatar presumably you are aware that abolition of the Seanad has been Sinn Féin policy for years, long before the Fine Gael proposals?

[beamish2010]

The Seanad should not be abolished - in my view we need an upper house. However the Seanad as it currently operates should certainly be abolished and it should be replaced with an actually operational and functional upper house.

60% of the members should be directly elected, the remainder should be appointed via a list system.

The current rubbish around its bizarre electorate needs to be completely thrown out !! The people should vote in the members of the Seanad.

The other Dail reforms that should be considered would be teduce the number of TDs to 100. All to be elected by the people (the list system element will apply only to the upper house). Dail Eireann is our house of representatives so they must by definition be representatives of the people, selected by them in secret ballot. In conjunction with this there needs to be a separation of local from national issues - ie enhance the power of local government but simultaneously greatly enhance the transparency of their decision making and also greatly enhance the level of over-sight of the parliament over local government - maybe via a constitutionally recognised committee of oversight.

I'd go along with the proposal to reverse the consequence of the abbeylara judgement and implement a dail/seanad committee of enquiry model.

Change the proposal re the people's right to petition - increase the threshold to 100,000 but make it binding that the petition be considered and debated in both houses - allowing just 25,000 signatures is too low and the duty of the Dail to respond simply by "considering" the proposal is too weak.

Abolish the senate and reduce the numbers of TD's to 100 seats as well.

[Casualbets]

Reform the Seanad, don't scrap it....

(a) Abolish the Taoiseach's nominees and the University Panels

(b) All 60 senators to be elected from the existing Vocational Panels (plus a few new ones) but from a national electorate - same as the Dail

(c) Senators to be eligible for ministerial office

(d) A Qualified majority (ie 36 or 40 votes against) required to defeat bills