Ahern proposes Autumn Referendum on blasphemy.

[Christine Murray]

I wanted (somehow) to get back to the issue of reportage and discussion here, this amendment based as it was in incentivising and
criminalisation was hardly spoken about domestically . I did draw attention to the risible bit of fluff by O Brien in the IT BUT the fact
remains that a lot of our (so-called) artistic community didn't have the balls to point out how dangerous and idiotic an amendment
it truly was in terms of the ability of art to create dialogue and images that could be considered blasphemic.

Like WTF?

Is intellectual discussion in Ireland dead ? : / : http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...262465038.html

I was also surprised at how people attempted to isolate and demonise AI who were clearly pointing out that a criminalisation for blasphemy
based in incentivisation is a cop-out and attacks our rights to free speech. Some journalists did not acquit themselves with any dignity at all.

there were notable exceptions but not many

[toxic avenger]

I have to say I'd vote for its removal. We're big and ugly enough to listen to insults or mockery without legislative protection. People should have the right to blaspheme, but they should have the manners not to.

[SevenStars]

I wanted (somehow) to get back to the issue of reportage and discussion here, this amendment based as it was in incentivising and
criminalisation was hardly spoken about domestically . I did draw attention to the risible bit of fluff by O Brien in the IT BUT the fact
remains that a lot of our (so-called) artistic community didn't have the balls to point out how dangerous and idiotic an amendment
it truly was in terms of the ability of art to create dialogue and images that could be considered blasphemic.

Like WTF?

Is intellectual discussion in Ireland dead ? : / : Internet attacks on church belie need for open secularity online - The Irish Times - Sat, Jan 16, 2010

I was also surprised at how people attempted to isolate and demonise AI who were clearly pointing out that a criminalisation for blasphemy
based in incentivisation is a cop-out and attacks our rights to free speech. Some journalists did not acquit themselves with any dignity at all.

there were notable exceptions but not many

Free Speech is not something I would make a fetish of.

All societies practise some form of censorship (even in the USA child porn is illegal and rightly so!).

Are you against laws inciting racial hatred or whatever? Why in general have liberals gone mad on the blasemphy laws and not on those if they are so in love with the concept in general of free speech?

[nozzferrahhtoo]

Why in general have liberals gone mad on the blasemphy laws and not on those if they are so in love with the concept in general of free speech?

Well for myself it is because there is a difference between free speech which attacks ideas (such as gods, magic medicine, etc) and those that attack people or incite harm towards people.

This is an over simplification of course and really it has to be taken on a case by case basic but generally I would summarise it as follows:

I would stand to protect people from attack. I would never stand to protect ideas from attack, even those that I myself hold.

The blasphemy law protects no one. As the old saying goes Blasphemy is a victimless crime. It is established only to protect the ideas people hold and nothing else and I would be wary of any law being established for that.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Free Speech is not something I would make a fetish of.

All societies practise some form of censorship (even in the USA child porn is illegal and rightly so!).

Are you against laws inciting racial hatred or whatever? Why in general have liberals gone mad on the blasemphy laws and not on those if they are so in love with the concept in general of free speech?

They have tied themselves in knots over this. On the one hand, traditional liberalism supports free speech. On the other hand, the Left worship at the altar of the cult of "diversity" and "multiculturalism". For some, traditional concepts of free speech win out, while for others (imho including Vincent Browne - given his editorial in Village some years ago arguing that free speech shouldn't apply to blasphemy) the cult of multiculturalism/diversity wins out.

This is just the tip of the ice-berg in terms of the dilemmas multiculturalism will create for the Left-Liberals. In particular, the question of Sharia Law (at least for Muslims) will rear its ugly head and the Left will again have to choose what sort of "diversity" it prioritises: the right of women and homosexuals to equality, or the right of Sharia supporters to oppress both.

[sondagefaux]

What are you wittering on about now? There's no dilemma. A secular state with freedom of religious practice, subject only to the common good, is the aim of 'Left-liberals'. The rest is just a fantasy you've dreamed up out of nowhere.

[nozzferrahhtoo]

the Left will again have to choose what sort of "diversity" it prioritises: the right of women and homosexuals to equality, or the right of Sharia supporters to oppress both.

I am not sure I see the conflict nor how anyone can be tied in knots over it.

It is the right of people to read the Sharia laws and argue for those laws to be reflected in our society. I would allow them to speak and hear their arguments on a case by case basis for why each of their laws would benefit Irish society.

I would then go down with them on voting day and vote for or against their proposals based on how convinced I was by their position and their arguments for it.

Where is the problem? They have their free speech and after it we have our democracy. Everyone wins.

[SevenStars]

They have tied themselves in knots over this. On the one hand, traditional liberalism supports free speech. On the other hand, the Left worship at the altar of the cult of "diversity" and "multiculturalism". For some, traditional concepts of free speech win out, while for others (imho including Vincent Browne - given his editorial in Village some years ago arguing that free speech shouldn't apply to blasphemy) the cult of multiculturalism/diversity wins out.

This is just the tip of the ice-berg in terms of the dilemmas multiculturalism will create for the Left-Liberals. In particular, the question of Sharia Law (at least for Muslims) will rear its ugly head and the Left will again have to choose what sort of "diversity" it prioritises: the right of women and homosexuals to equality, or the right of Sharia supporters to oppress both.

Liberalism and integral socialism are enemies. One sees the individual as the prime social/political unit and one sees humanity as essentialy one single unit. You almost couldnt get further apart.

Socialism has more in common with conservatism which sees the family as the essential political/social unit than it does with liberalism.

[Trampas]

I would then go down with them on voting day and vote for or against their proposals based on how convinced I was by their position and their arguments for it.

Would you indeed ? Perhaps you expect a referendum on each and every one of those "proposals".

[nozzferrahhtoo]

Would you indeed ? Perhaps you expect a referendum on each and every one of those "proposals".

Just as soon as I say that is what I expect you can assume that is what I expect.