Sen Eoghan Harris blames republicanism for child sexual abuse

[Thranduil]

I shouldn't worry too much about the Sindo, long, long ago i realised that they had an agenda about Republicanism, i can't imagine anyone who reads it regularly and hasn't reached the same conclusion. Once you realise that they have an agenda you learn to treat what they write with a lot of scepticism, the problem they had is reflected in this article by Harris you reference - it was a rush to a conclusion in sloppy badly written opinion pieces, the conclusion was to demonise republicanism and it was quite obvious that this was the end product and everything in between was being pieced together in the way most likely to do this. I remember in the 90's opening up the Sindo and nearly every article no matter how unconnected to Republicanism brought in Sinn Fein/IRA as they universally referred to it, virtually every writer, after a short time i obviously couldn't take them seriously on these issues.

As for trying to link Republicanism to the abuse issue specifically, it's because as a smear merchant he has become aware of the power of the anger and shock which the revelations of abuse have generated, it has humbled a once-towering institution, as a smear merchant he wonders if he can harness it, tap into it somehow and fling it at the cause he is paid to attack.

His point is simplistic but has a bone of truth in it. The issue isn't republicans. It is establishments. The abuses that hit extreme levels after independence in industrial schools etc were not tolerated as willingly under British rule, because the governing establishment didn't have the closeness to the institutions that produced the abusers. The governing elites after independence were closer to the Catholic Church and instinctively willing to allow it a free hand.

Going back 100 years it is probably the case that abuses in such places were very normal, in the 19thC they had a special cat of nine tails designed specifically for children. Abuses like this did not just begin with the Catholic Church, nor were they unique to Ireland.

It has nothing to do with republicanism. It is to do with establishments. One major negative in independent Ireland was the power of the Catholic Church and that was because the establishment, and indeed the country, was homogeneous and felt a bond of affinity to the Church.

The Church's power in Ireland predates independence. In 1913 during the lockout the Bishops successfully struck a blow against the strikers when they vetoed the possibility that Irish Catholics send their children to England for the duration of the strike. You could probably find that sexual abuse of children went on commonly back then (not necessarily clerical), if someone abused you and probably especially if you were male - in those times you kept that a lifetime secret, you certainly couldn't take it to the authorities, or even your priest. In this climate you can and that's the main reason why we know lots about child abuse from the last few decades and almost nothing of institutional child abuse in the 19thC. This is a really weak narrative i hear time and time again, that things were better under the empire, it makes me laugh - the first thing i think of is 'how many famines did we have?', no matter how badly the place was run post independence it was physically impossible to make it worse than pre-independence. You sometimes hear the related narrative spoken about Africans (usually from British) that they were better off under the empire, that the empire should be reformed - send in the troops and sort them out... etc.

As for the C Church being a negative, educating the nation's children was a major contribution to the nation, surely. Yes the abuses were bad but let's not forget the positive things the C Church may have done.

[merle haggard]

Sorry is this has been asked for already but can you reference the speech or article that this comes from?

indeed heres more of it

I abhor the kind of anti-clericalism which seizes on atrocities such as this. However, as one born and reared as a Roman Catholic, I ask is there something special in the religion of my childhood that allowed this systemic abuse. At first glance, it would appear there is. Although there was a large proportion of Protestant children in institutional care in the Republic, abuse of them was very rare. I remember reading in the Cork Examiner how when Protestant children would get out of orphanages in Kerry, local Protestant shopkeepers would look after children when they were on the run.In Northern Ireland, institutional abuse of Protestant children was very rare, apart from the Kincora incident, and almost unknown in Roman Catholic institutions. There is not something inherently bad about Roman Catholicism but there is clearly something inherently bad about Roman Catholicism’s relationship with the Irish Republic.


Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) Seanad Éireann Thursday, 21 May 2009 - Page 1

[merle haggard]

[quote=Thranduil;2245372]

I shouldn't worry too much about the Sindo, long, long ago i realised that they had an agenda about Republicanism, i can't imagine anyone who reads it regularly and hasn't reached the same conclusion. Once you realise that they have an agenda you learn to treat what they write with a lot of scepticism, the problem they had is reflected in this article by Harris you reference - it was a rush to a conclusion in sloppy badly written opinion pieces, the conclusion was to demonise republicanism and it was quite obvious that this was the end product and everything in between was being pieced together in the way most likely to do this. I remember in the 90's opening up the Sindo and nearly every article no matter how unconnected to Republicanism brought in Sinn Fein/IRA as they universally referred to it, virtually every writer, after a short time i obviously couldn't take them seriously on these issues.

except this isnt an article in the sindo , its a seanad debate on quite an important issue . An issue were other prominent politicians in leinster house are signalling their support of his views .

As for trying to link Republicanism to the abuse issue specifically, it's because as a smear merchant he has become aware of the power of the anger and shock which the revelations of abuse have generated, it has humbled a once-towering institution, as a smear merchant he wonders if he can harness it, tap into it somehow and fling it at the cause he is paid to attack.

hes equating republicanism with catholicism , its something that has become rife in ireland . Youll see very simlar views making the link expounded here from left right and centre . Thereis a view abroad that casting off the shackles of the catholic church also involves abandoning republicanism , 1916 , the irish language GAA etc . It has become conflated within a certain body of middle class opinion as all one and the same .

Going back 100 years it is probably the case that abuses in such places were very normal, in the 19thC they had a special cat of nine tails designed specifically for children. Abuses like this did not just begin with the Catholic Church, nor were they unique to Ireland.

joan burton disagrees , she may be in governemnt in shortly

[Amach na Casca]

Harris is absolutely obsessed with vilifying republicans and making connections with any ills in Irish society and republicanism. I do concur with Merle that this is however a new low even for him.

This except from the piece surmises the absolute hypocracy of his statement most:

Ministers for Education, politicians, barristers, lawyers, doctors and the entire Irish professional middle class, who all professed republicanism and all wanted a united Ireland, turned a blind eye.

Do we therefore deduce that all the above types of professionals who are/were pro status quo and pro partition have a different attitude to sexual abuse?

Absolute lunacy linking to two completely unrelated topics. Harris is officially a clown.

[merle haggard]

Harris is absolutely obsessed with vilifying republicans and making connections with any ills in Irish society and republicanism. I do concur with Merle that this is however a new low even for him.

This except from the piece surmises the absolute hypocracy of his statement most:

Ministers for Education, politicians, barristers, lawyers, doctors and the entire Irish professional middle class, who all professed republicanism and all wanted a united Ireland, turned a blind eye.

Do we therefore deduce that all the above types of professionals who are/were pro status quo and pro partition have a different attitude to sexual abuse?

Absolute lunacy linking to two completely unrelated topics. Harris is officially a clown.

people who could have exposed it a long time ago were rte current affairs and other journalists . Yet harris is making the point apparently that the whole country knew about it except for the journalists . And particularly not the journalists in RTEs current affairs department .
and what was his actual job prior to being appointed as a senator ?
The fact is harris knew about it , harris was in a position in RTE current affairs were he could have exposed it . He didnt . He turned a blind eye to it , among other dreadful things he preferred to censor . The man has censored more catholic vicitms of abuse than anyone else part from conor cruise obrien . Whats worse is an entire seanad let him away with it instead of pointing out the glaringly obvious to him . That of all members of the house he probably could have done more to expose it than anyone else but turned a blind eye.

[codology]

Im sure it will come out some day that as a youngfella Harris was ridden by a priest who was in the IRA.

[Mitsui]

It has nothing to do with republicanism. It is to do with establishments.

+1

[Thranduil]

except this isnt an article in the sindo , its a seanad debate on quite an important issue . An issue were other prominent politicians in leinster house are signalling their support of his views .

I know i was really half responding to another poster who mentioned the Sindo, same type of attitude and Harris was (is?) a Sindo columnist. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Bertie Ahern put him there in the Seanad and Bertie likes to call himself a Republican and an Irish Nationalist.

people who could have exposed it a long time ago were rte current affairs and other journalists . Yet harris is making the point apparently that the whole country knew about it except for the journalists . And particularly not the journalists in RTEs current affairs department .

It often happens that with institutional child abuse (or any child abuse) you have a huge ring of people involved, from professionals to others... i would be very surprised if only priests and religious people were engaging in abuse at those homes, given the silence from the state at the time about it i would be very surprised indeed.

[merle haggard]

[quote=merle haggard;2245425]indeed heres more of it

I abhor the kind of anti-clericalism which seizes on atrocities such as this. However, as one born and reared as a Roman Catholic, I ask is there something special in the religion of my childhood that allowed this systemic abuse. At first glance, it would appear there is. Although there was a large proportion of Protestant children in institutional care in the Republic, abuse of them was very rare. I remember reading in the Cork Examiner how when Protestant children would get out of orphanages in Kerry, local Protestant shopkeepers would look after children when they were on the run..

Protestant children ignored by inquiry into institutional abuse



Derek Leinster is a victim of institutional neglect but he has not been able to tell his story to the Republic's authorities and was not mentioned in the Ryan report - because he was raised a Protestant.

http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540...rotestant.html

In Northern Ireland, institutional abuse of Protestant children was very rare, apart from the Kincora incident,

there wasnt an incident at kincora , kincora was not an incident . Kincora was a care home which was a virtual brothel , a harem and play house for sexual predators for years .Not just for those animals who ran it but for the prominent individuals who were invited to visit and for those who held parties accross the uk where the kincora boys were brought to as guests . It was an horrific spectacle which was covered up for years by the british authorities as not only were its agents running it it gave them the opportunity to blackmail the important individuals who abused the boys there .
And it most certainly wasnt the only " protestant " institution in the north were abuse was rife either

and almost unknown in Roman Catholic institutions.

this is absolute bollix bearing in mind the Fr Brendan Smyth affair broke in the north

and will come as quite a surprise to this woman

Clerical abuse: Northern Ireland victims fight back - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

There is not something inherently bad about Roman Catholicism but there is clearly something inherently bad about Roman Catholicism’s relationship with the Irish Republic

the rlationship was incestuous and 2 ways . The state afforded the catholic church a degree of primacy for the same reason the british did . It was an agent of social control , it kept the natives in line . Thats why harris never exposed it when he was in charge of rte current affairs .
Like any institution that was unnaccountable this afforded an immense amount of individual power to individuals . Not only preists but politicians and gardai - all of whom have been implicated in abuse .

theres horrific stuff the gardai have enaged in , yet harris for damn sure doesnt criticise them

[Amach na Casca]

Thank God for the internet and discussion forums. Harris' bile and hypocracy will get fully exposed around here. Can't believe that arsehole is a senator, thanks Bertie. Theres absolutely no way he would be elected by actual people.