PSNI recruiting child informers

[PAUL MEYER]

St333ve wrote:

PAUL MEYER wrote:
In an effort to head off what I know will be entirely predictable and ill-informed howls of outrage from the usual sources (see "st333ve" above for a good example of the genre) , may I just point out that this document is merely the PSNI's interpretation of guidelines issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). These guidelines will have been produced and distributed to all of the 43 forces in England and Wales with the aim of ensuring that individual force's policy on the subject complies with the letter of the law, in this case the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. The aim of the act is to ensure that investigation's are conducted morally, ethically and legally and give's increased protection to the individual against, for want of a better phrase, unauthorised and unnecessary police surveillance. As such the the Act and the PSNI's policy on this subject should be welcomed by the law abiding public everywhere in the UK.

St333ve wrote:

[quote:35a7mu47]Paul meyer, the man who does not see a child as a child yet agian, but only justifies the psni's usage of children in their sicko pawn game. his last display of sicko kid using psni defending post "11 yr old arrested by psni" was outragious to say the least,

Yes, in fact it was so outrageous that you were unable to reply to it in a sensible manner. Anyway, once again you have waded in spouting ill-informed garbage on a subject which you clearly don't understand, viewed, as always, from that narrow Irish republican perspective which says that the world is out to get you. Do you not realise that the police forces in these islands don't only have to deal with Irish Republican and Loyalist criminals but other more mundane types like drug dealers, burglars, handlers of stolen goods, smugglers, car thieves etc etc? It's not just high-ranking members of Sinn Fein/IRA who pass criminal information to police y'know. (that might be a bit of a shock to you, sorry!)

and god forbid anyone who tries to even believe that children should have the right to a peaceful non informant sectarian life while growing up will be shocked to see that the psni's new toys are underage kids,

I've read this bit several times now and it's still gibberish.

but this doesnt bother "paul meyer" as his only justifacation for this behaviour is the fact he states it happens in other places, aka england and wales,in which he is severly mistaken in believing that northern ireland has the same laws

What "behaviour" are you referring to here? We are discussing, unless I'm mistaken, a set of GUIDELINES concerning the handling of children who may pass criminal intelligence to the Police (Child in this case meaning anyone under the age of eighteen). I am well aware that there are differences between the Law in NI and england & Wales but not that much and not in this case.

Well it must be ok then! without any proof yet agin ,apparently using chilldren in police matters happens in wales too! so why bother commenting it must be ok it happens in wales!!!

What "proof " do you need, look at the source of the document you clown!
In fact I'll quote the whole thing here in the hope that you can be arsed to read it through amd maybe get your facts right for a change, I've high-lighted some of it in case you get bored with all the detail, please do make the effort, it would be nice to raise the tone of the discussion beyond that of the playgroind.

8. CHILDREN AS COVERT HUMAN INTELLIGENCE SOURCES
(1) A Source
(a) A ‘Covert Human Intelligence Source’ is defined in Section 26(8 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 as a person who establishes or maintains a personal or other relationship with another person for the covert purpose of facilitating anything that:
(i) Covertly uses such relationship to obtain information or to provide access to any information or to another person; or
(ii) Covertly discloses information obtained by the use of such a relationship or as a consequence of the existence of such a relationship.
(b) A relationship is used covertly if, and only if, it is conducted in a manner calculated to ensure that the person is unaware of its purpose.

(2) A ‘Juvenile Source’
A ‘juvenile source’ is a source under the age of eighteen years.
(3) Juvenile Sources
Special safeguards apply to the authorisation for the use or conduct of juvenile sources. (4)

On no occasion can the use or conduct of a source under 16 years of age and living with their parents be authorised, to give information against their parents.

(5) (a) In other cases, authorisations can be given with the following additional safeguards:
(i) Juvenile sources can give information about other members of their immediate family in exceptional circumstances.
(ii) A parent/guardian or other ‘appropriate adult’ must be present at meetings with the juvenile source under the age of 16 years.
STANDARD
When considering the use of children as covert human intelligence sources the Police Service ofNorthern Ireland will comply with Sections 6.24 -6.28 of the Manual of Minimum Standards forCovert Human Intelligence Sources approved by the Association of Chief Police Officers and by HMCustoms and Excise.

(b) In addition, an authorisation should not be granted unless or until:
(i) The safety and welfare of the juvenile has been fully considered.

(ii) The Authorising Officer has satisfied themselves that any risk has been properly explained and understood by the juvenile.

(c) A risk assessment has been undertaken as part of the application to deploy a juvenile source, covering the physical dangers, the moral and psychological aspects of their deployment.
23
(d) Authority for the deployment of a juvenile source is at Assistant Chief Constable level. Authorisations should last for one month, renewable for a period of one month. With juveniles, the principle issue is the maturity of the individual. In general, the more a Controller is satisfied that the juvenile understands their position, understands the risks which they run and demonstrates self-reliance and some control over their life, the safer it is to use them as a source. A decision not to inform a parent or guardian should be based on the same considerations.

(e) It is important for Handlers, Controllers and Authorising Officers to understand the implications of Gillick v North West Wisbech Area Health Authority (1985) and the duty to protect children at ‘risk’ or ‘in need’ as specified in the Children (NI) Order 1995.

6) Ethical Issues
(a) Research by the National Source Working Group has shed light on the particular ethical difficulties, which may arise for officers handling juvenile sources. This research stresses the vital role played by the Controller and the Authorising Officer in ensuring that the process be properly monitored. It also highlights that the officers concerned be properly supported and that the welfare needs of the juvenile and the wider interests of society be subject to continuous review and the result recorded in the source file. Points to consider are:
(i) A juvenile source may become dependent on their Handlers - only advanced Handlers should be used, to keep the relationship on a proper footing.
(ii) Juvenile sources may have a drug or alcohol dependency problem - risk assessments and risk management plans must address this. Methods and levels of payment should be tailored to avoid contributing to the dependency.
(iii) Juvenile sources may commit more crime than they help clear up. The public interest requires an honest assessment to be made about the need to target a source, particularly if the crime is feeding drug dependency.
(iv) Particular care is required in planning for the safety of juvenile sources. Experience shows that many give little thought to their needs beyond the immediate future and require constant rehearsing in all aspects of safety.
(v) The Act makes it clear that juveniles should be used to gain information about members of their immediate family only in exceptional circumstances. It expressly forbids the use or conduct of a juvenile source under 16 years of age giving information against their parents with whom they are living.

(vi) These rules are based on the right to privacy and respect for family life enshrined within the Human Rights Act. They also present a significant practical and ethical issue for Handlers and Controllers.

Where, exceptionally, such a situation arises, the stress to which the source may be the subject requires constant monitoring and the burden on Handlers may be substantial.

(vii) It may be advisable, where practicable, to tape record meetings with juveniles and conduct the meetings in suitably secure and convenient locations. Although at times unavoidable, such meetings held at police stations should be kept to a minimum, which further reduces the risk of exposure of the source.
(b) In any case, when consideration is being given to the use of a juvenile source, and questions arise, the matter should be referred to Head of Intelligence Branch for advice.

[/quote:35a7mu47]
Please pay particular attention (for as long as you can at any rate) to the bit about the Human Rights Act. This is because far from being a wicked, devilish protestant plot to ensnare innocent Catholic infants into the corrupt arms of the PSNI, the GUIDELINES are in fact issued to ensure compliance with the HRA. Now I know that as a supporter/sympathiser of Irish Republicanism, Human Rights (other people's that is) are probably not high on your agenda but I 'm sure even you won't want to be seen to be against the concept?

[st333ve]

It's a win-win scenario for the police. If the child gathers information successfully, it helps them take down dissident republicans. If the child is caught, and the dissidents are stupid enough to beat or kill the child, it's good PR for the PSNI anyhow. Some real evil geniuses at work there.

As much as i dispise dissidents, and theyre insanely stupid firebombs, i would still find it very hard to believe that they would go from targeting british empty franchises, to beating and killing children, considering the fact that their last attack seemed to have a lot of thought put into it so that nobody was injured, and they have openly announced they are no longer persuing violence.
And no i am in no way justifying anything they do, i hate the scumbags tbh but republicanism as a whole has moved away from violence in a big way, even the british troop numbers have went from 30,000 down to a mere 5,000 as a direct event of the end of the troubles