BBC accept UVF started the "troubles"

[Chrisco]

[quote=Glennshane;1830287]

st333ve said:


" And yet blacks in the deep South didn't blow up any babies and yet still achieved their goals. Strange. "

Ulster Catholics can do without the goody, goody stories. How Blacks in the USA respond to tyranny is their business, how we do so is our business.

That line of argument doesn't hold; st333ve was essentially arguing that violence was an inevitable consequence of oppression. It is clearly not the case, as demonstrated.

What you seem to be arguing, therefore, is that there is something inherently violent about Irish nationalism, which is a point worthy of discussion of and by itself.

[Glennshane]

[quote=Chrisco;1830369]

That line of argument doesn't hold; st333ve was essentially arguing that violence was an inevitable consequence of oppression. It is clearly not the case, as demonstrated.

What you seem to be arguing, therefore, is that there is something inherently violent about Irish nationalism, which is a point worthy of discussion of and by itself.

I was not referring to Irish Nationalist Irrendentism. I was referring to Ulster Catholic Defendism. How we respond to Prod tyranny is our business and no business of those who have lived at a comfortable distance from Prod tyranny.

P.S. Black Americans have not been at all peaceful in the face of WASP racism. They had their citiies in flames before the start of the Ulster Catholic crusade against WASP tyranny

[Chrisco]

[quote=Glennshane;1830584]

I was not referring to Irish Nationalist Irrendentism. I was referring to Ulster Catholic Defendism. How we respond to Prod tyranny is our business and no business of those who have lived at a comfortable distance from Prod tyranny.

And what of the majority of Ulster Catholics who rejected violence as an acceptable response?

[st333ve]

Votes were allocated on the basis of property
Property was allocated by Unionist councils.
Unionists rigged elections through gerrymandering.

Protesting against this was banned, and protestors were attacked.

When you deny people democracy, basic rights and the ability to protest then what other option do you leave them when theyre being completely ignored by the rest of their own island and by Britain.

Violence brought media attention to the situation in the north, the north was completely ignored by Britain and the Free State after partition but media attention put international pressure on the British to refom the north and end the unionist regime.
Its a sad fact that complaining and protesting done nothing, and the British responded immediatly to the only language they could understand.
Violence.

With unionists losing their sectarian rule and nationalists rebelling a situation was created that would last a lot longer than anyone could ever imagine at the time.

Nationalists didnt just decide to create trouble, they put up with 50 years of the unionist regime before the troubles.
Partition kicked off a pressure cooker in the north that erupted in the late 60's after Loyalist and police attacks on civil rights protestors - it all resulted in Irelands longest conflict to date.

The UVF didnt start the troubles, they were a symptom of the unionist superiority regime that controlled the north and degraded the Irish catholic people.
Superiority complexes and hatered towards those who are deemed lesser people are very dangerous and often result in violence.
This is what caused the troubles and many other conflicts across the world.

[topotheday]

Which was the chicken and which was the egg? Both views could be argued from the historical record of terrorism and counterterrorism known as the ‘Troubles ‘..
However there is an interesting array of loyalists 'firsts'. Loyalists carried out the first murders of the Troubles (Malvern St -Gusty Spence etc), the first bombings (the UPV bombings of water and electricity utilities outside Belfast in 1969), murdered the first policeman (Constable Arbuckle in 1969),carried out the first crossborder attack (Ballyshannon electricity station,Donegal,1969), and were the first to fire on the British Army (Shankhill Road Oct 10/11, 1969). Most of what political violence has been going on since 1998 has been carried out by loyalists - multiple pipebombings etc – a fact which is consistently ignored in the pro-unionist southern media.

I see what you mean Anamnua. I guess Republican specialised in volume rather than timing - most murders, most mutilations, most kids killed, etc...

[topotheday]

Votes were allocated on the basis of property
Property was allocated by Unionist councils.
Unionists rigged elections through gerrymandering.

Protesting against this was banned, and protestors were attacked.

When you deny people democracy, basic rights and the ability to protest then what other option do you leave them when theyre being completely ignored by the rest of their own island and by Britain.

Violence brought media attention to the situation in the north, the north was completely ignored by Britain and the Free State after partition but media attention put international pressure on the British to refom the north and end the unionist regime.
Its a sad fact that complaining and protesting done nothing, and the British responded immediatly to the only language they could understand.
Violence.

With unionists losing their sectarian rule and nationalists rebelling a situation was created that would last a lot longer than anyone could ever imagine at the time.

Nationalists didnt just decide to create trouble, they put up with 50 years of the unionist regime before the troubles.
Partition kicked off a pressure cooker in the north that erupted in the late 60's after Loyalist and police attacks on civil rights protestors - it all resulted in Irelands longest conflict to date.

The UVF didnt start the troubles, they were a symptom of the unionist superiority regime that controlled the north and degraded the Irish catholic people.
Superiority complexes and hatered towards those who are deemed lesser people are very dangerous and often result in violence.
This is what caused the troubles and many other conflicts across the world.

I see what you mean St333ve. I guess some Loyalists say the same thing - any movement towards a United Ireland = big bombs in Dublin.

It's a horrifying mindset - in both cases.