Was the GFA a defeat for the Provisionals?

[pogo]

Was the Good Friday Agreement a defeat for the Provisionals :

[Johnny]

Was the Good Friday Agreement a defeat for the Provisionals :

If they regard it as being the end on their struggle, yes.

If they regard it as a springboard to their long-term aspirations, no.

[David Cochrane]

Is this an attempt to troll/row with trefor?

Either way, moved to 'Northern Ireland' as it's more relevant there.

[pogo]

Is this an attempt to troll/row with trefor?

No it isn't.

As a matter of fact I believe it was Trev's insistence on arguing with me that ruined a good debate.

Perhaps Merle, El Matador, Cormac, Meriwether et al would like to restate their positions here.

[brenners']

The GFA is not a republican document, neither is it a loyalist document in my opinion. At the time I think it got support in republican circles because of the clause on prisoners. Certainly at the time that would have been a major reason why I voted for it.
But I think there has been a lot of real genuine work done since it was signed Johnny by the republican movement in order to shape it into a vehicle to achieve our goals. I think the work on the all-Ireland agenda and how that can be used to move things forward is very positive. I still have reservations comrade and understand why these questions are now being asked, I think most republicans do, but so far I am still to be convinced that there is a better approach to take. Sin é.

[commentator]

Inasmuch as it recognises and formally legitimises the Union it is clearly a defeat for irredentist republicanism. Nothing is sure in life or politics but it is a sure as anything can be that no one alive today will see an united ireland and a likely as not that there will not even be a vote in the next two generations.

It is a strategic victory fot he Dublin establishment in that it ties the UK in for decades, probably generations, to come. One could see it as the formal victory of Garret fitzgerald's long term policy of keeping Britain engaged whilst the 26 counties develops a separate national identity.

[georgedillon]

bren:
"Certainly at the time that would have been a major reason why I voted for it. "

What, was there a vote in SF as to whether to sign it or not? I'm not a member of the party, but that's the first time I've heard of such a vote.
GD

[tomaltach]

Not a defeat for those who are now at the head of that movement. Certainly it represents a distinct failure for those who advocated bloodshed as a way of pushing the Brits out of NI. Fortunately, there were those in the said movement who were more reasonable. They realised that slaughter had only one reward: more suffering and deeper division. The reasonably successful infiltration of the IRA by the Brits further crippled the case that geurilla warfare could deliver. So the GFA was a success for current provos but is seen as surrender by the radicals whose opinions reflect those who held sway 20 yrs ago. But by any measure the military campaign itself - as opposed to the GFA - was worse than failure. Those who took lives and gave their own lie buried in a NI where, after 25 years, the leaders of all sides signed an agreement strikingly similar to that on offer in Sunningdale (Mallon's slow learners eptihet rings true.) What a tragedy that so much blood had to gush onto the streets of NI between Sunningdale and Good Friday.

[merle haggard]

Its a British government document . They ensured British sovereignty was non negotiable from the start , not even up for discussion . What the nationalists and Sinn Fein call recognition of Irish rights to national self determination is merely a restatement of what the British governmEnt have been telling the unionists since the 1940s . The defences of it here seem to indicate that Britain has succeeded in portraying the struggle as an insular localised one ,between unionist and nationalist and not between Ireland and Britain . A remarkable victory for their strategy of Ulsterisation in itself.

The GFA , as Ive stated before, is the outworking of total success for British counter insurgency strategy in Ireland . The threat to the realm of militant republican seperatism has largely been neutralised , its once massive arsenal of weapons largely surrendered , its raison d'etre to politically oppose the British occupation never mind physically fight it has been removed by the GFA . Ulsterisation , normalisation Criminalisation , making some form of British rule acceptable ( Oatley and MI6's formula which gave birth to the H Blocks) has been delivered . In full . In a short time the provisionals will go one further than surrendering arms but will be encouraging their people to become local sepoys and join the British police . Their job will be to mop up and remove the last remnants of militant seperatists resistance and even political spokespersons . And directives from the new MI6 HQ in Lisburn will be the orders the sepoys will have to follow when they arrive at mens doors in their British uniforms to take them away . If Sinn Fein refuse to take part in this , the DUP refuses to share power .
GFA = total victory for Britain . Why do people see victory over local unionists as worth anything ? The British state is the enemy . The GFA is their wildest dreams come true . Unionist dreams are irrelevant to the question .

[DSCH]

Its a British government document . They ensured British sovereignty was non negotiable from the start , not even up for discussion . What the nationalists and Sinn Fein call recognition of Irish rights to national self determination is merely a restatement of what the British governmEnt have been telling the unionists since the 1940s . The defences of it here seem to indicate that Britain has succeeded in portraying the struggle as an insular localised one ,between unionist and nationalist and not between Ireland and Britain . A remarkable victory for their strategy of Ulsterisation in itself.

The GFA , as Ive stated before, is the outworking of total success for British counter insurgency strategy in Ireland . The threat to the realm of militant republican seperatism has largely been neutralised , its once massive arsenal of weapons largely surrendered , its raison d'etre to politically oppose the British occupation never mind physically fight it has been removed by the GFA . Ulsterisation , normalisation Criminalisation , making some form of British rule acceptable ( Oatley and MI6's formula which gave birth to the H Blocks) has been delivered . In full . In a short time the provisionals will go one further than surrendering arms but will be encouraging their people to become local sepoys and join the British police . Their job will be to mop up and remove the last remnants of militant seperatists resistance and even political spokespersons . And directives from the new MI6 HQ in Lisburn will be the orders the sepoys will have to follow when they arrive at mens doors in their British uniforms to take them away . If Sinn Fein refuse to take part in this , the DUP refuses to share power .
GFA = total victory for Britain . Why do people see victory over local unionists as worth anything ? The British state is the enemy . The GFA is their wildest dreams come true . Unionist dreams are irrelevant to the question .

Interesting that you see the British state as the enemy. Do you believe that Britain still has a "selfish, strategic" interest in Northern Ireland? Surely that section of "mainland" British opinion that actively wishes to remain in Northern Ireland is motivated by "anti-materialist" emotional concerns, e.g. memories of Britain's greatness, Herrenvolk posturing etc?