Gerrys comments in Galbally

[centauro]

But why would a unionist be persuaded to unite with the rest of ireland, when they have a veto in place as things are?

But why should a unionist be forced into an alien state, against his will?

The minute they get to 50+1 their veto is gone. The GFA might seem like it only requires a relatively small number of unionists to switch allegiance, but the reality is it re-inforces partition. It gives no incentive to unionists to join a united ireland.

Correct, the GFA was never designed to persuade unionists or give them an incentive. It was designed to bring peace, and leave a viable route to a united Ireland.

And on the other hand it brings nationalists into the british state, those who were once fighting it are now administering it. And an orange state (for that's the only way that you can describe a state that is based on a unionist veto) is only going to perpetuate sectarianism.

Those nationalists have been part of the British state for hundreds of years. Why are their aspirations any more valid than those of their unionist neighbours?

If there was a declaration of withdawal, unionists would have to start to engage with the rest of ireland. When British withdrawal was seen as being a possibility at the height of the conflict, loyalists were actually considering the alternative of a federal ireland as set out in the eire nua programme, long abandonned by psf, but still advocated by rsf. More of them were however considering a UDI.

Why should unionists be subjected to that? because you want it? because you, and militant republicans live in a 19th century fantasy world? There will be to decleration to withdraw. 30 years of violence didn't bring it about, 30 years more won't either. That's the fact of the matter.

But the point is that once the certainty of partition and enforced sectarianism is gone, then processes will develop whereby unionists will engage with nationalists, not on the basis of a veto, but on a basis of equality.

Unionists do not want to be citizens of the ROI, that's the crux of the matter. The ROI is an alien state, seemingly hostile and foreign. The ROI will have to change. The national anthem, the flag, the dominance of the irish language, health care provision, membership of the commonwealth and Nato yada yada yada...if you want a united Ireland get going....

What? You don't fancy that? Then you won't have a united Ireland.

[seanciaran]

Funny, but when the IRA was engaged in the most recent phase of sustained armed resistance (1969 - 1997) west brits, and revisionists frequently referred to those Republicans who pursued the option of armed struggle, in bygone days, as the "old IRA". This absurdity was part of a their effort to demonize the Provies. It's an old tactic used time and again by Irish pro-partitionists Given the current position of Adams et al, i.e. collaboration with the occupier and acceptance of RUC/psni, one ought not be surprised to hear him use similar terminology. Reminds me of 'Animal Farm', specifically when the other animals were looking in at the pigs who had taken control of the farm and had become just as bad as the ousted farmer.

[Risteard]

Those nationalists have been part of the British state for hundreds of years. Why are their aspirations any more valid than those of their unionist neighbours?

What made the aspirations of those in the Free State any more valid than their compatriots in the still-Occupied Six Counties?

[centauro]

What made the aspirations of those in the Free State any more valid than their compatriots in the still-Occupied Six Counties?

Their aspirations are every bit as valid, but can't be realised at present as there is a unionist majority in the six counties, which chose not to seceed from the union.

[Duth Ealla]

But why should a unionist be forced into an alien state, against his will?

[COLOR=red]Funnily you think its other Irish peopole who will force them. Whereas its going to be the Scots and the English you need to account for.[/COLOR] Same for the [COLOR=red]dissidents. They dont recognise how things outside of Ireland change the context here. Hence Cameron's UUP link up.[/COLOR]

Correct, the GFA was never designed to persuade unionists or give them an incentive. It was designed to bring peace, and leave a viable route to a united Ireland.

[COLOR=red] True. It was also designed to stop the reflexice scream of No. Anyhow good to see thats now changin. The Allister spin off is being spun off and out of the picture[/COLOR]

Those nationalists have been part of the British state for hundreds of years. Why are their aspirations any more valid than those of their unionist neighbours?

[COLOR=red]A harder question to consider indeed.[/COLOR]

Why should unionists be subjected to that? because you want it? because you, and militant republicans live in a 19th century fantasy world? There will be to decleration to withdraw. 30 years of violence didn't bring it about, 30 years more won't either. That's the fact of the matter.

[COLOR=red]Withdrawal becomes more likely with peace. The conflict became an issue of unionist identity. The removal of the conflict removes a plank in oppositional unionism of the No variety. Its humourous to see Unionists talking about others living in the 19th Century. Physician heal thyself.[/COLOR]

Unionists do not want to be citizens of the ROI, that's the crux of the matter. The ROI is an alien state, seemingly hostile and foreign. The ROI will have to change. The national anthem, the flag, the dominance of the irish language, health care provision, membership of the commonwealth and Nato yada yada yada...if you want a united Ireland get going....

[COLOR=red]Thats your wish list though. Most of those things are not up for negotiation but that does not mean that people who were formerly unionist cannot live in an Ireland that will recognise their identity. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR]
What? You don't fancy that? Then you won't have a united Ireland.

[COLOR=red]How is Unionism going to react to the break up of the U.K.? [/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]As a unionist you need to work out your response to that. Ignore the idea that unionism needs to negotiate now because of the demographic shift. Instead evaluate your response to ongoing Scottish and Welsh devolution projects.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]On every part of Ireland there are people who do not want a United Ireland.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Unfortunately for them its going to be forced on them by wider circumstances outside their control.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]All we can do is try to manage the process together.[/COLOR]

...............................

[Risteard]

Their aspirations are every bit as valid, but can't be realised at present as there is a unionist majority in the six counties, which chose not to seceed from the union.

An invented "majority", who are in actual fact an 18% minority in the country. Your argument is a nonsense.

[Tiernanator]

Yeah, but by having partition, what's the point in having the orange in the flag at all? You may as well have a green flag for the free state, and an orange one for the north, although all the good work gerry's done in persuading unionists they might just allow a green patch to be sewn on somewhere near the bottom.

u will never encourage unionism to engage with the rest of ireland by maintaining a partitionist orange state. that's like saying that by maintaining apartheid that you might just persuade white south africa to engage with the black majority.

Good point. As a Sinn Féin member I do have severe reservations about the Stormont experiment. However I don't agree with violence. State or otherwise and therefore even the imperfect peace is better than what has gone on before. To be honest the growing wealth in ROI was much more of a persuader to unionists than anything any party had done up to know.

Sadly the economy in ROI is in bits due to mismanagement and cronyism and therefore this attraction is less valid. However the UK is also having a hard time and if Scotland eventually goes independent. I think 10 years of a tory government should do it. Then the northern unionists will be even more isolated from their "mainland". I do agree with the analogy of South Africa except the apartheid system didn't permit participation like the northern assembly. So while there are similarities there are differences.

[oscartango]

Sadly the economy in ROI is in bits due to mismanagement and cronyism

Yet only a few short months ago Gerry was offering Sinn Fein to Bertie as coalition partners !

Ye soon changed your tune.

[SlabMurphy]

ONLY moderate nationalism will bring about a united Ireland. You need to convince a minimum of 200,000 unionists to vote for it...murdering them, the police or army will not convince them.

They wouldn't matter. Nationalists will be in teh majority in 2/3 decades time regardless. In NI schools, Catholics outnumber Protestants by 40,000 already. Check the link.

Northern Ireland summary data - Department of Education, Northern Ireland

[oscartango]

You seem to be equating ALL Catholics with Nationalists in your sectarian head-count. Who knows what the situation may be in 2 to 3 decades ? We may have integrated schooling North and South where this educational apartheid nonsense is a thing of the past.