The beginning of the end of the GFA

[Tiernanator]

okay i am a little off the beaten track here but clearly statements like,

"All people should be entitled to full social, economic and cultural equality." Mary Lou McDonald (Sinn Féin Vice President)

are as much a reason for the people of northern ireland to be disenchanted with local politics. And considering the majority of ireland really dont care for a untied ireland, along with the continuing realisation that the north would only destroy what sh*ty economy we have left in ireland, is it not surprising people would be less interested in all the boll*x that seems to flow out of the north.

Not helpful and a trifle predictable IrishConservative. Do you think we haven't heard this type of boll*x before.

[Pat Mc Larnon]

This is a failure of the negotiating teams in the All Party Talks.
A referendum based on the majority of a statelet you don't even recognise is only shelving the problem for another day. The referendum should go ahead with or without British consent. They should be persuaded to take part, and International pressure should be laid,Republicans for their part should cease violence to accomodate a peaceful referendum, but if they refuse to take part they will be denying democracy to the vast majority of the Irish people.
Partition affects both sides of the border. Solutions to partition must involve both sides of the border. The Unionist minority cannot stop democratic constitutional change. Nationalist failure to negotiate, and British failure to lay a strong hand on Unionists condemned us all to decades more of the Status Quo.

The very essence of 'all party talks' is that other parties do have a say in what can and cannot be discussed. The British being the current administrators for that part of Ireland thus have the final say in what can feasibly be discussed. Their power relative to that of Irish Republicans makes that an unfortunate truth.

We will all agree on the artifical democratic majority given to unionists at partition but that is a legacy that we have to deal with in the here and now and it is a legacy that no Britsh government is going to turn its' back on. The IRA campaign post 1969 is testament to that.

The idea that we can hold a referendum on this island without the full co-operation of the British with some, as of yet, ungarnered International pressure is pie in the sky stuff.

The staus quo need not be a reality if sufficient political pressure is applied. The 6 counties is unrecognisable from what it once was and I certainly believe more changes can be made through the current political process, laboured and slow moving though that may be. I do have faith in republican policies (throughout all parties) to the extent that enough of those who currently favour Westminster rule can be persuaded to the merits of a UI.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Right the country cant afford to run the 26th counties let alone adding on another 6.

We will be a united ireland eventually.Its inevitable.But at a time when we as one people decide not an the whim of 300 extremists.The only difference between RIRA and the Taliban is their religion.Both are terrorists.

[Seánod]

A leading Sinn Féin member told me, at the time of the GFA, that you could barely put a hair between the decision to sign up or not to sign up... it was so close.

The British and the DUP have been swinging and dangling and laughing on that hair for 10 years. Like the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the GFA is getting dustier and dustier... it has failed to deliver the hopes for change the nationalist community felt at the time. At some point, Sinn Féin will feel this in elections... but not yet.

[Ulster-Lad]

A leading Sinn Féin member told me, at the time of the GFA, that you could barely put a hair between the decision to sign up or not to sign up... it was so close.

The British and the DUP have been swinging and dangling and laughing on that hair for 10 years. Like the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the GFA is getting dustier and dustier... it has failed to deliver the hopes for change the nationalist community felt at the time. At some point, Sinn Féin will feel this in elections... but not yet.

There is the problem. The Nationalist community hasn't gotten anything from this agreement or since. Sure there is McG in Stormont and that is all.

[mutley]

The very essence of 'all party talks' is that other parties do have a say in what can and cannot be discussed. The British being the current administrators for that part of Ireland thus have the final say in what can feasibly be discussed. Their power relative to that of Irish Republicans makes that an unfortunate truth.

We will all agree on the artifical democratic majority given to unionists at partition but that is a legacy that we have to deal with in the here and now and it is a legacy that no Britsh government is going to turn its' back on. The IRA campaign post 1969 is testament to that.

The idea that we can hold a referendum on this island without the full co-operation of the British with some, as of yet, ungarnered International pressure is pie in the sky stuff.

The staus quo need not be a reality if sufficient political pressure is applied. The 6 counties is unrecognisable from what it once was and I certainly believe more changes can be made through the current political process, laboured and slow moving though that may be. I do have faith in republican policies (throughout all parties) to the extent that enough of those who currently favour Westminster rule can be persuaded to the merits of a UI.

Who needs to apply the political pressure - if its Sinn Fein you aren't applying enough, If its the brits - the chances of that will be even less when the tories get into power
And I haven't seen any evidence of this persuasion to the pro westminster group - talk is cheap, and the DUP are running rings round Sinn Fein

[Amach na Casca]

It is very hard at the moment being a republican who rejects violence but nevertheless agrees with much of the analysis of people like Truth.ie and Amach na Casca. While I accept the wishes of the people and support the GFA as an imperfect stopgap I do concede that those republicans that reject it have quite a sound historical analysis to back their claims.

However I just don't know how the can even think about supporting another armed campaign. It won't work. After 9/11 the governments of the west especially are committed to suppressing what the call "terror". Any dissent will be quashed not only by the reactionary forces in Ireland and the UK but worldwide. Peaceful opposition to the GFA is not only justifiable but very understandable. A return to the hell that we have come from will not be permitted by either the nationalist/republican people or indeed the reactionaries/state forces. Please think again if you are supporting armed struggle or trying to get other people to support it.

Thats a fair and reasonable assessment. Maybe Factual will take note and learn theres more to being a party hack (if he actually is one, and not some sort of wind up) than blindlingly agreeing with every single detail and word coming out of the party leaderships mouths, and all aspects of every agreement ever struck since the beginning of time.

Personally I believe the way forward is for SF to engage with dissidents and take on board some of their concerns as much as they can. This would go a long way towards diffusing the tensions that are currently built up. Ignoring all of the dissidents concerns, and any more McGuinness style 'traitor' comments uttered will be extremely counterproductive and will only serve to make the intra republican rift even wider.

[Pat Mc Larnon]

Who needs to apply the political pressure - if its Sinn Fein you aren't applying enough, If its the brits - the chances of that will be even less when the tories get into power
And I haven't seen any evidence of this persuasion to the pro westminster group - talk is cheap, and the DUP are running rings round Sinn Fein

The political pressure needs to be applied by all those parties who believe in a UI. In theory at least this applies to all the parties in the 26 counties. As it is they have shown unwillingness to get involved in the UI debate to any great extent. in that regard it is indeed left to SF. That being the case is it not more prudent to support the efforts of the party rather than be the hurler in the ditch with nothing realisitc to offer?
SF has a UI as the central core of party strategy, thus it is considerably more than cheap talk.
You are of course entitled to your opinion on the DUP.

[mutley]

The political pressure needs to be applied by all those parties who believe in a UI. In theory at least this applies to all the parties in the 26 counties. As it is they have shown unwillingness to get involved in the UI debate to any great extent. in that regard it is indeed left to SF. That being the case is it not more prudent to support the efforts of the party rather than be the hurler in the ditch with nothing realisitc to offer?
SF has a UI as the central core of party strategy, thus it is considerably more than cheap talk.
You are of course entitled to your opinion on the DUP.

There is nothing new about the Irish Parties apathy towards a united Ireland.

I don't doubt that Sinn Fein is commited to a United Ireland, I said that talk of persuasion to pro Westminster people was cheap and I haven't seen any evidence of this persuasion.

I want a United Ireland, I'm happy enough to wait until the majority in the 6 counties favours this, I don't support violence. As an average joe I don't really have anything realistic to offer with regards to a united ireland, except my vote - but why should i support Sinn Fein?
What has the party done for the people who voted for them in West Belfast - its a highly deprived area by all accounts with anti social behaviour at an all time high, the same could be said for Lurgan/Craigavon
In the course of the parties strategy to persue a united Ireland they have neglected the people who voted for them and their needs. It is this neglect that easily leads to youths with nothing only time on their hands, to support a dissident campaign - because there is absolutely nothing else on offer for them.

[HanleyS]

HanleyS if there was no threat of violence the majority of people in the republic would gladly welcome the north. Maybe not at this time because of the worldwide recession,they probably couldn't afford the north now but just after the GFA there was an awful lot of goodwill towards the north and towards the idea of agreed unification. Partition is not good for Ireland. If you lived like I do on the border you would see how ridiculous the whole thing is.

I am not fixed on the idea of a unitary state but I do feel that northern nationalists have an absolute right to be part of the Irish body politic. This right has been half-heartedly guaranteed by the GFA but I think over time and with a lot of goodwill there could be a consolidation of the rights of northern nationalists as full Irish citizens. I hold an Irish passport and am therefore an Irish citizen, yet I have no real say in the body politic of my country. I do not resent or resist the rights of northern unionists to maintain strong links with Britain but I seek to have my rights as an Irish citizen recognised.

I think in essence these rights which have already been guaranteed by GFA need to be strengthened and this may move the political agenda forward. Issues like the Irish Language Act while appearing unimportant to outsiders are symbols that respect for both cultures in the north is real and ongoing. Blocking tactics by some unionists make it so easy for anti-GFA militarists within republicanism to say that nothing has changed.

Just one last point. Over the past number of years I and others have felt that we are being pressurised to conform to the status of being northern Irish and supporting the statelet of northern Ireland. While I will do or say nothing that will see it collapse by violent means I have no interest in it's continuance as a viable state. I long for it's demise and pray for the day it does not exist. No one can make me feel British or quasi-British northern Irish. I feel Irish. I am Irish.

The fact is that regardless of the threat of violence it would mean forcing a majority of people in the region against their will to come under the jurisdiction of the Irish state. Withstanding that, there is the continued threat of violence because if the Irish state did that then they would have abnadoned the principle of democracy and resorted to a form of gerrymandering. I personally don't believe that the majority of the people on the island of Ireland would support the abandonment of democracy, introducing a form of gerrymandering and handing the unionist majority a mandate for themselves abandoning democracy.

I fully agree with your points that you should have the right to be Irish citizen like those south/west of the border. This shouldn't however mean that those that wish to identify themselves as British should be forced to also be Irish citizens. As such a United Ireland is not viable against the wishes of the Unionist majority. The best that could possibly be hoped for in the short to medium is that Northern Ireland becomes a substate of both Ireland AND Britain. I think that this has already been implied by both governments as the Plan B should Stormont fail. I don't think this plan is in anyone's interests, nor a return to violence and bloodshed.