Is it time for Bishop Magee to go ?

[fionnmccool]

Please don't tar all Christian Brothers with the same brush.

I went to a Christian Brothers school and they treated me decently and fairly and as far as I could tell treated the other pupils likewise. However perhaps this was when they were aware that the sh1t was going to hit the fan. They didnt try to brainwash me with religion either. In fact my impression was that certain lay teachers were far worse in behaviour and trustworthiness. I also found certain lay teachers to be far more extreme in religious instruction. My uncles have a less than favorable impression of Christian Brothers but they went to school when hitting a disobedient child was the norm and when the school is officially a CBS school then the behaviour of the lay teachers will also reflect upon the managers and ultimate owners who at the end of the day were the Christian Brothers.

[tmesis2008]

The Church isn't going to be swayed by external, non-authoritative opinion. Especially opinion that emanates from non-Catholic groups, many of whom are blatantly anti-Catholic and aggressively seek out information that they can warp and twist to suit their own agendas.

Well, the church is under pressure from within and without in this regard.

For example: someone already mentioned Amnesty International -- a pro-abortion organisation who have sniped at the Church many a time in the past.

Amnesty Internation have "sniped" at the church? Examples, quotes, link?

I think the Catholic hierarchy, operating under civil law, with due regard to the relevant authorities and interest groups, should formulate their own conclusions and their own response. I'm sure this will be communicated in due time. And I don't believe that the Church are deliberately delaying, dragging their feet or seeking to upset the due process.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The Church has a history of cover-up in regard to child sexual abuse by its members, and have demonstrated that they aren't to be trusted in this matter.

With the full facts, I've no doubt that the Irish clergy will make the right decision, seek justice and do their utmost to try to atone for any evil acts that were perpetrated under their watch.

Again, if the church were interested in atonement they wouldn't have accepted that sweetheart deal with Bertie Ahern where they Irish taxpayer now pays financially for the vast majority of compensation for the abuse. Atonement otherwise is just hot air.

Also, we still have no official explanation from Church as to how in many, many different countries bishops carried out (and do carry out) the same policies of covering up child rape by the clergy. There was an attempt to explain it recently in a BBC documentary by citing the Crimens document, but this was angrily denied by the Church.

If this wasn't the reason for the ubiquitous policy of child rape cover-up then what was it? Is there something in the training methods which teach bishops to cover-up child abuse? How can the policy of the cover-up of child rape be practiced in so many countries and not be a central policy? Did the Catholic authorities in each country just happen to come up with cover-up policies on their own, independently? Did each of the hundreds, thousands of individual dioceses?

And, do you know if the Vatican now has a worldwide policy document on the protection of children?

Let's everyone just calm down. The child-rapist-angry-mob mentality really is beginning to grind on me at this stage.

Well the destructive systematic abuse of children and the church continuing to put children in danger (Cloynes) is doing more that grinding on everyone else. Get a little perspective here, would you?

[TradCat]

I never liked Bishop Magee and was particularly opposed to his plans to vandalize St. Coleman's Cathedral. He would be no loss in my opinion. So if this is unfair to him I accept my bias upfront.

What this episode does is expose the weakness that was always there in the Church's response to the child-abuse scandal. Guidelines are fine if you have a Bishop who wants to do the right thing.

But they have no legal force and a Bishop who is (putting it carefully) out of sympathy with the objective of the guidelines can ignore them or apply the minimum required.

The responsibility here is with the State in my view. Magee should be facing charges if he covered up or failed to report abuse. If convicted he should get jail. That should be the case for all citizens.

The state should not rely on Church procedures in any way. As an organization the Church is structurally unsuited to dealing with this problem and will remain so. It appears riddled with people who are either sympathetic to the abusers or are more concerned with saving the institution from scandal than finding the truth.

Suppose a Bishop had hidden the proceeds of the Northern bank robbery in his palace. Would we be waiting for him to stand down? Would we be glad when other Bishops issued coded criticisms? Or would we expect the Gardai to bust him?

What Magee is accused of is far more serious is it not? If the law is inadequate let's have new laws.

[tmesis2008]

TradCat,

We are in complete agreement. It should be a criminal offence to "place children in danger" and to not report crimes when you are in a position of responsibility like John Magee.

The "guidelines" are next to useless if one man decides that he doesn't want to implement them.

[Factorem]

Well the destructive systematic abuse of children and the church continuing to put children in danger (Cloynes) is doing more that grinding on everyone else. Get a little perspective here, would you?

tmesis2008: torch holder in chief.

[Factorem]

No argument then?

It's impossible to argue with someone who's driven by emotion rather than logic.

[Factorem]

pots and kettles, pots and kettles

I don't see your point.

[tmesis2008]

I don't see your point.

What he's saying is that you say things like, "Why don't you go work in an old folks home?" when a more comprehensive reply to the post is actually required.

If you're going to accuse me of being "emotional", then please provide quotes to show that my arguments are based more on emotion that on logic.

I think you will find with most of my posts I try to make a reasonable point.

If you want to prove that your arguments are based on logic rather than emotion perhaps you could provide me with those quotes that demonstrate that that Amnesty International "snipe" at the Catholic church, as you have claimed?

And, my other points from that post stand without retort from you. I asked a lot of questions of you about Catholic Church practices in regards to the cover-up of abuse and your opinion on the same, and to say that I am "being emotional" by asking them is a pathetically weak response.

[Factorem]

I've already made my points and don't really have much else to add. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument over bread crumbs.

Let's let due process take it's course.

I'll leave the angry-lynch-mob to get back to their usual business now.

[tmesis2008]

I've already made my points and don't really have much else to add.

Clearly, you don't.