How the Provos 'sold out'

[Garibaldy]

As has been alluded to earlier, the violence only served to further divide the people of Ireland, and in that sense was objectively anti-republican and reactionary. In fact, the communalist politics of representing Catholics or Protestants behind the politics of almost every party in NI is anti-republican and reactionary. Only a party that actually strives to achieve the unity of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter - instead of paying it lipservice once a year at Bodenstown - can claim to be republican. Big Bobo is right that The Workers' Party has consistently sought those goals, having quickly realised that any violence - even the shooting of British soldiers - merely served to divide the people of Ireland, and drive both unity and socialism further off the agenda.

[Garibaldy]

The split in The Workers' Party in 1992 can be simply explained. The faction led by De Rossa sought to abandon the struggle for socialism and the unity of the Irish people in order to achieve the crumbs of political power as minor players in any coalition in the south that would have them and to advance their careers. Their given reasons were a smokescreen, as history has proven.

[Bobert]

Well I'm not in the workers party so I couldn't explain their demise in detail. There is a guy called Podolski on here who is a member so you'd have to converse with him about Eoghan Harris.

You're attempting to educate JMCC on who posts here? You've been here a month.

[Thranduil]

The subject of IRA violence is a complex multilayered one. Decent people condemn and abhore acts such as Warrington but what about the IRA brigades that defended their communities when those came under attack? What about the British role as almost solely about tackling nationalist paramilitaries (and collusion) so that when the UK army showed up in an area it was regarded as similiar to a loyalist invasion? The IRA role in NI was complicated and shrugs off simplistic attempts at definition such as 'evil child killers' as much as it shrugs off the suggestion that it was always heroic.

Likewise in terms of their motivation, we do not find blacks and whites, but shades of grey. In their heart of hearts did the IRA really believe the Brits would leave? These were intelligent men so i would say no, they didn't. Once fighting broke out however the only pathway they saw was to go on with it and perhaps wear down British presence forcing some form of compromise. I think compromise (as opposed to achieving the impossible) was actually their goal. The GFA is about compromise (and not getting everything their own way either as the anger at the GFA by some Republicans on this site repeatedly highlights) and if we can only judge someone on whether or not they achieve their goal and if we accept that the IRA goal was realistically not about getting everything their own way but achieving some kind of compromise... Then it could be argued that the IRA succeeded.

[Big Bobo]

The split in The Workers' Party in 1992 can be simply explained. The faction led by De Rossa sought to abandon the struggle for socialism and the unity of the Irish people in order to achieve the crumbs of political power as minor players in any coalition in the south that would have them and to advance their careers. Their given reasons were a smokescreen, as history has proven.

Democratic left always did strike me as nothing more than opportunists and careerists.

[Kilsally]

Tell that to the people of the loyalist ghettos who live in fear of loyalist paramilitary drug barons armed by your beloved Britain.
Britain still has done nothing to reduce this threat and they've had 14 years.
You should meet Raymond McCord.

indeed, yet when was the last time they were really active? Not defending them here by any means, infact the opposite, I am totally opposed to paramilitarism, but the point is that dissident Republicans are the ones killing people this year and last year, and attempting to kill people, and shooting people and planting bombs.

[derry_ff]

The subject of IRA violence is a complex multilayered one. Decent people condemn and abhore acts such as Warrington but what about the IRA brigades that defended their communities when those came under attack? What about the British role as almost solely about tackling nationalist paramilitaries (and collusion) so that when the UK army showed up in an area it was regarded as similiar to a loyalist invasion? The IRA role in NI was complicated and shrugs off simplistic attempts at definition such as 'evil child killers' as much as it shrugs off the suggestion that it was always heroic.

Likewise in terms of their motivation, we do not find blacks and whites, but shades of grey. In their heart of hearts did the IRA really believe the Brits would leave? These were intelligent men so i would say no, they didn't. Once fighting broke out however the only pathway they saw was to go on with it and perhaps wear down British presence forcing some form of compromise. I think compromise (as opposed to achieving the impossible) was actually their goal. The GFA is about compromise (and not getting everything their own way either as the anger at the GFA by some Republicans on this site repeatedly highlights) and if we can only judge someone on whether or not they achieve their goal and if we accept that the IRA goal was realistically not about getting everything their own way but achieving some kind of compromise... Then it could be argued that the IRA succeeded.

Indeed, and I think it has to be stated also, that victory as some people put it here was never in he minds of many IRA volunteers, they expected SF to achieve that politically while they provided a parallel strategy - that is why hundreds of people in Derry and now Armagh are organising against SF - I dislike the term dissidents when referring to these groups, dissidents to me are those who are out planting bombs and shooting policemen.

[derry_ff]

I think the title of this thread should probably be How the Provos were sold out. Not that im defending the IRA in any way, but I think it is clear that the rug was pulled out from many volunteers, they were told to fight to the death, but the people who gave the orders turned there back first.

[ArtyQueing]

My fathers generation did think this. He blames the SDLP for saving the British on at least one occasion when they were actively considering pulling out

[derry_ff]

I find the Mallon-Hume axis is seen to have done that particularly in the NW, RUC Officers went to Humes constituency office in Foyle to get forms filled out while things were happening in the city that shouldnt have been